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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 09:23am PT
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Bob, Don't let your ego get involved ;)
Japhy, sounds like they were jerks. It realy sounds like you are trying to pass some of the blame for your accident on to those jerks. That is not going to help you. Anger is not going to help you heal.
They were long gone when you guys had your wreck. You had pleanty of time to get your act together after getting rudly passed. You had an obligation to get over it and focus on getting down safely. A climb is never over untill everyone is safe on the ground. The summit is only half way there.
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moronbros
Mountain climber
Seatte, North Cascades
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May 13, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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All really good points here. This is a tough area to really nail down and put into print in an internet forum.
It really boils down to that moment you are meeting the other party and what you can work out during your crowded belay. The instant you look at them you can find out whether they are going to be a jerk about it or completely cool. It's a people skills thing, not something you learn quickly.
If you can understand what the other party is really up to, you can assess whether or not you want them to be above you dropping gear and rocks on you.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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May 13, 2010 - 11:26am PT
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You had plenty of time to get your act together after getting rudely passed. You had an obligation to get over it and focus on getting down safely.
I am very bothered by this comment. We invest huge amounts of ourselves in the endeavor of climbing. It is certainly true that a large component of climbing is the ability to control our own mind. However it's one thing to have an unknown jerk offend you on the freeway. It's another thing entirely to have someone that you respect and look up to, treat you improperly.
Our society is permeated by dishonesty and opportunism that are destroying our society; between Deep Politics, War Inc and Wall Street. We may not have a lot of influence in those arenas. I think many of us look to climbing as a domain providing some relief from all that. And we can have some influence over the ethics practiced within our sport. And by supporting good ethical practices as a group within our sport; we can also influence the society at large.
People tend to look up to ethical climbers as individuals and as a group. Poor ethical practices deservedly make us look like crazy idiots - to put so much at risk and then act like jerks.
If we don't respect each other within the sport, then how should we expect to be regarded ourselves?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 13, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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the point is this.
go ahead and pass people with your dick hangin out and your mouth flappin,
but now realize, after this accident, that your actions may have consequences that you do not think about.
blame shifting? maybe, but lets get all the facts on the table.
if these guys were nice in passing, then a non pissed of climber might not have forgotten the knot.
but like i mentioned before, we need a system that works no matter what condition the climbers mind is in.
put a frickin card on your harness.
have someone sign you off before you take the nestea plunge.
and Japhy, you post all you want.
if ever there was a time to post, this is it.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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May 13, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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Communication is the key. I think it was the late George Carlin that said, "drivers that pass you are maniacs and drivers that are slower than you are road hogs."
Variation on a theme: A number of years ago I began leading a 5.10ish variation of a short climb in the Gunks. I'm 15' off the deck and dicking around trying to get a small nut to stick when a top-rope gets dropped on my head from 60' up. No call of 'rope' and they evidently didn't even look before throwing the cord. Oh yeah, they poke their head over the edge and say "we're going to do this climb."
It was a good test of my arterial strength because my BP at the time caused my ear lobes to hurt. I have good arteries.
I was so pissed that I said nothing, down climbed, packed up and left without saying a word. I mean I was so pissed that had the rope throwing idiot popped around the corner things would have gotten interesting, quickly. And I'm the type to do something stupid first and plead forgiveness later.
In retrospect, I'm pleased with my decision. If I remember correctly, we got a great day of climbing in and now have a good story to tell on top of all that.
Maybe we should all take the line of more respect for each other. I think a little respect goes a long way.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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Tom. I agree with you 100% that people should be kind, considerate, thoughtfull and respectfull of all the other climbers they encounter regardless of their respective ability levels.
All that is well and good but at the end of the day you can not let emotions control decisions up on a wall. You have to clear your mind of the distractions and do what needs to be done to keep everyone safe.
I may be wrong on this but the tone of jeffe's post seems to indicate that he is trying to indirectly pass some of the responsibility for the accident on to the party that was rude to him and Brian. That does not fly. It happend, it sucked, get over it and pay attention to your own job which is getting off the cliff safely. I might seem a bit blunt here but reality is what it is. Sooner that you deal with it the better. What happend is in the past, nothing you can do the change it or reverse it. Somehow you have to process it and move on.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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You guys had a 30 min sitdown at the top to discuss the incident. If you still let it affect your decision makeing after that you have to accept that as your baggage . Sorry but that is life...
PS, I have pleanty of my own baggage stored away includeing the death/guilt variety. Somehow you have to accept what happened, learn from it and keep on liveing. We are just here to learn...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 13, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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Japhy, you were in the right to be super pissed at those folks. Their conduct was beyond rude and into the the "you're risking my life" territory. It shows what kind of guy Brian was that he didn't punch their lights out up there.
A few years ago I was involved in a real cluster on The Trough. Somehow I ended up with an extra cam, so it wasn't all bad.
Prior to that, I was in a party of three, one of whom was leading The Trough as her first lead. She wasn't struggling or anything, and doing a good job. She's now a very solid leader.
We had gotten an early start. Up behind us came a party of two. They asked to pass. My thought process was: here's a party on The Trough. Who climbs The Trough? Beginners. There's some loose stuff higher up, not a lot, but some. Do I want beginners above me? No. So that's what I said.
It turns out the party was Sue and Julie from rec.climbing. If I had known that, I would have invited them to pass.
Was I a dick that day? Julie thought so. She's probably right about that.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 13, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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Tradmanclimbs: Sorry but I don't buy that. When someone climbs past you simo climbing without asking or disregards your appeal not to climb over your ropes and puts you and your partner in possible jeporady, that is quite upsetting. My partner, WHO NEVER GETS PASSED IN ANYTHING HE DOES, is still upset over a year later about these guys who climbed around and then over the top of us on Birdland, simply because we were being considerate to the multiple parties ahead of us. I am also. Simply because they were simo climbing(like whoever these climbers were on Serenity/Sons), it doesn't give them the right to climb over the top of people. To say that to get in a confrontation with a group over passing, and then a 1/2 hour later, this will not affect your thought process is ridiculous. yes, you should be focusing on the task at hand, but the confrontation and aftermath may make it hard to do so. That much is obvious here. That is why whoever these people were that were inconsiderate, rude, and self entitled, they indeed indirectly contributed to this accident. After something like this happens, the climbing community does need to take a hard look inward. There are climbs where speed records are sot out, like The Nose and NWFHD, and teams should be prepared to step aside and let speed climbers thru. Even Serenity/Sons be prepared to allow them to pass. But for someone to climb thru a belay up behind a leader disregarding the appeal not to, well.... very bad karma.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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May 13, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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I was so pissed that I said nothing, down climbed, packed up and left without saying a word.
Yosemite is my favorite place on earth and Camp 4 is my home and you all are my extended family. However I left the valley climbing scene for forty years over the kind of treatment I got from fellow climbers. And I am not the only one.
I never did stop climbing, and I feel that being famous is greatly overrated. I suppose bullying is a fine technique to narrow the field for those obsessed with being the hero.
No one is going to feel threatened any more by a demonstration of my climbing abilities. I am older and wiser and not afraid to speak out just because some heroic opinion leader is also a bully obsessed with ego expansion techniques.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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May 13, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
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I may be wrong on this but the tone of jeffe's post seems to indicate that he is trying to indirectly pass some of the responsibility for the accident on to the party that was rude to him and Brian. That does not fly. It happened, it sucked, get over it and pay attention to your own job which is getting off the cliff safely. I might seem a bit blunt here but reality is what it is. Sooner that you deal with it the better. What happened is in the past, nothing you can do the change it or reverse it. Somehow you have to process it and move on.
I agree with the above. However it sounds like we lost a special person in the middle of this learning experience. That's an awfully expensive way to learn a lesson. If people are such talented climbers, then how about apprenticing others rather than lording it over them?
I am very uncomfortable that this discussion is happening without the participation of the well known climbers in question. It seems like some very big apologies are in order. And for those deserving as opinion leaders; this is an important opportunity to make community-wide policy improvements .
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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Studly, They had a bad experience. Some jerks climbed all over them. Its not worth getting killed over. They had a sit down, hashed it out etc. the responsibilty of getting themselfs home safley is 100% theirs and to try to pin any of it on a party that were jerks to them in the past is complete bullsh#t..
Heck I have had fights with my GF up on the wall. Had a woman tell me that she was leaving me on P3 of an 8 pitch climb, whatever. The bottom line is you have to be able to focus on the task at hand and not let the distractions in life kill you. You have 100% control over the things YOU do. You can not blame YOUR actions on others.. Those people had left, they were long gone.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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Tom, I think you have to seperate the 2 incidents. Yes The big shots were jerks and should be nicer to the common folk.
The accident happed well after that event and was aparently the result of the team useing a fairly obsure and somewhat sketchy system that they did not fully understand as well as a lack of concentration perhaps due to letting a prior incident bother them emotionaly. Forget the past, think only of the now and the very imediate future when rapping. Be methodical, don't count the climb over untill you get down safely. You have only yourself to hold accountable for these basic principals.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 13, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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You're right, its not worth getting killed over. or someone else getting killed either. Your climbing ego is not more important then my safety or that of my partner.
Maybe the op should have reached out and pulled some slack and threw a ovehand knot in the rope and tied the chick off so she couldn't go any further. She had been asked not to. Then the resulting confrontation when the second arrives, escalating tempers....what do you do when you are on a climb and at place where you don't feel comfortable with someone passing and they do it anyway? I know what I will do in the future. There is a big difference between allowing someone to pass and someone forcing themselves on you at what you feel is a inappropriate moment. That call should generally always be up to the lead team, don't you think?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 13, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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Regarding Anchors..
If climbing, nobody is trying to pass, and a leader arrives at a bolted anchor before the other party has left (this is common!), the arriving leader should always have the right to clip the bolted anchor, especially if no other pro is available.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 13, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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Wow, that's a vision-
"Maybe the op should have reached out and pulled some slack and threw a ovehand knot in the rope and tied the chick off so she couldn't go any further. She had been asked not to."
Aside: Were I ever under the circumstances to do this, somehow I feel I would be way more inclined to do this if it were a guy instead of a girl. (Probably a weakness.)
EDIT 10:14 Melissa- Wow! Powerful post. All the way around.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 13, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
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japhy,
First, I want to say that I really am sorry for your pain right now. You're a stranger to me, but I've thought about you and Brian so much this week.
I know that it might be hard to accept, but believe that everyone who was on the route the day your friend perished, including the simulclimbers, is in hurting and in some state of shock too.
The passing sounded clearly rude. The climbers wouldn't have won points with me, and I might have ripped into them too.
But if no accident happened in that moment, it's really putting a lot on the passers to put any part of you and your friend's rigging error on them, especially when it sounds as though Brian had gotten newly distracted by taking pictures of other climbers ascending.
The closest I have come to dying on a climb (that I'm aware of anyway) happened because I was having a big 'ol crying fight with my bf. He started up the climb in a huff, and somewhere in the fray I threaded my knot but didn't tie it. Did I mention that the fight started b/c I lowered off the climb after an unsuccessful lead? Good thing I sent on "TR". He saw the state of my knot as I neared the anchor and grabbed my belay loop. I cried again at the anchor when I realized just how close I came.
We abandonned the whole trip after that. I didn't climb again for a month. My lesson that I took from it after much mulling and stress was that I can't control the people around me, but to a degree, I really can choose to block or indulge in strong emotions that they stir in me. For the sake of safety, it's often best to do whatever I can to put off going to that place until I'm done climbing, even if my feelings are justified.
A friend of mine who rides motorcycles told me that the biker anaology for how much distraction you're allowed is that you've only got one buck in your pocket. If 10 cents goes to a helmet that doesn't fit right, and 10 to the radio, and 10 to what's for dinner...To maximize safety, it's important to not give any of that dollar away unless you really must.
I'm sorry that your burden is so hard to bear, and hope that you find a way to manage it with the help of friends. I shared the story because I feel like it was a really bad thing that happened to me that gave me some insight that keeps me safer now. I don't mean to sound preachy, but I'm afraid that I do.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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Studly, all that is childish. If you have a bad experience in a life threatening situation you need to let go of emotions and do all the right things to stay alive. In this case they needed to make a concious decision to let it rest and deal with their own responsibilitys.
I take this lesson and try to apply it to climbing.
The way you know that you are figting a professional is when you hit them in the face their emotions do not change. An amatuer gets angy and emotional when struck hard in the face, their emotions take control of them and they become easy to read and easy to beat. A pro turns into a machine when he gets hit. No emotion, no fear, no anger, no indignation, just the mechanicle actions that are required to do the job and come home alive.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
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Melissa nailed it. Her BF may well have been a jerk but it was Melissa's responsibilty to take care of herself and tie in correctly.
Whenever something emotionaly distracting happens while climbing you MUST take a time out and get your sh#t together. That is YOUR responsibility cause it's YOUR sh#t that will splatter if you don't.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 13, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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What a crock Tradman. No one is debating what would be best case scenario with your emotions. The problem with emotions is that they can get the best of you, especially when they are inflicted by other people and they usually stay with you far after the conflict is over. To say otherwise is not dealing with reality.
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