Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
|
Dogs scare wildlife in ways in addition to just chasing it, digging it up, barking at it, and other obnoxious behaviours.
Dogs have a similar scent to coyotes, wolves and such predators. Both their actual scent, and their urine markings. Invisible to us, no obvious effect. But there are significant behavioural and habitat effects on many species simply because dogs are present - forgetting about their more apparent behaviours. At Skaha, the cliff area is key mountain sheep spring lambing habitat, and the presence and activities of dogs (and humans) over the last 20 years may have driven the sheep further uphill and inland, to less desirable lambing terrain - that is, more exposed to predators.
Off-leash dogs also do a good job of retrieving annoyed bears, which I guess is a rough sort of justice.
And yes, humans often disturb widlife enough already that we don't need to compound it with dogs.
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
|
The dogs from Sirius soon recognized that Jedi mind tricks were more effective than begging.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
|
Last May, two juvenile cougars at Squamish were shot. One was preying on dogs on the backside trail, sometimes taking them from their owners, despite leashes. And a friend had his dog snatched by a coyote while walking on the dike in Brackendale. All part of the environment, where wilderness begins at your back door, whether or not you appreciate or accept it.
Tami's brilliant avalanche poodle is undoubtedly a reasonable exception to the no dogs in wilderness principle.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
|
Have to say that my sympathies always go with the wild over the domestic when it comes to the animal kingdom.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
|
Damn, I've already lost my visa to get into Boulder.
|
|
bergbryce
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
|
I love dogs. I think that about 1 out of every 20 or so dogs I encounter at the crag or in the backcountry are properly behaved. About half of those are too arthritic to hunt wildlife, go through your pack or create some sort of unwanted distraction/disturbance.
There was a lost dog at a crag a few weeks ago that was humping damn near everything in sight. That dog was too preoccupied by humping so it never had the opportunity to become annoying by any of the previously mentioned ways. I wonder if the proper owner ever showed up???
|
|
David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
|
i have a different question.... Dogs in Jtree? At the Crags? Hell i have a dog i love more than anything, and i will not bring him to a National Park/Monument-there are certain places dogs just shouldn't go, because there are higher needs, i.e., wildlife and wilderness preservation. There is tons of land, desert and mountain, available to dogs and their owners. That's where they belong.
And HossJulia, your observations were interesting-i have a beagle, occasionally terrible off leash-does that mean he gets less pleasure or is less of a dog because he is on leash? if you saw his face as we walk through the wood s together, you wouldn't think so. Sometimes i feel there is a very judgemental aspect with on leash dogs, like they aren't well trained or their owners are boobs.
Jes sayin....
|
|
Aya K
Trad climber
New York
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
|
Nobody's mind is every changed by these threads, blah blah blah blah blah
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
|
OK!
I love “good dogs.”
“Good dogs” relate to “responsible owners”
I believe that dogs mimic their owner’s personality.
If you are an aggressive person: your dog is aggressive.
If you think you are “the only person that matters”-----your dog picks up on that behavior.
If you are not a “controlling person”-----your dog does not have direction, and does not know what is expected of it. (Nazis are the very best dog owners!)
If you are a clueless as#@&%e: your dog acts the same----but then you don’t care.
I will suggest!
Maybe your dog doesn’t belong at the climbing area: unless it is roped up and climbing with you.
Just-------using my powers of observation.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
May 10, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
|
Pate: Let's not bring up the "Nazi-Jewish thing." My relatives got out of Germany “just in time” to avoid the death camps.
What I am trying to point out is: dogs want direction!
It comes from the wolf-pack origins.
Dogs need a decisive: “pack-leader” to show them how to behave.
I have close neighbors that have two dogs: that are out of control from lack of direction. When the neighbors leave, and hand the dogs over to Heidi and me:--------the dogs get some direction.
They fetch, sit, heel, and do all those Nazi-dog things.
Otherwise, the neighbors pretend their dogs don’t want to be Nazi dogs.
Dogs want a pack leader, and I am sorry I incited you by using Nazi as the leadership term.
“Ronald Reagan like” would probably have incited you too.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 12:01am PT
|
I don't know if it's buried in this thread or some other, but what Locker said once really resonated w/ me.
Something like...'Dogs don't belong at the crags, but whenever I see one, he's always a buddy.'
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 12:06am PT
|
"doggerel": hee...hee..hawhaw...snort...guffaw...
|
|
Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 12:25am PT
|
Pate, your dog is gorgeous!
Why is it that dogs always seems to know when a person is not a dog lover and then proceed to annoy the hell out of them?
|
|
Aya K
Trad climber
New York
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 12:27am PT
|
Digressing a bit now, but Fritz, you have it just a bit wrong (perhaps it is more semantics than anything, but semantics are what gets us into really dangerous territory like where the "Dog Whisperer" has taken the public, ugh); firstly, I need to point out that dogs are not wolves. In the wild, dog packs do not have a leader. They are simply a loose association of animals who sort of come and go in an amorphous "pack" when convenient. No leader per se.
As for wolves, again, there is no leader in the classical sense of an "alpha male" who is dominant ant tells everyone else what to do; it is a family where mom and dad know how to get food and so on, and so the rest of the pack (their kids. Wolves are family units, not packs of unrelated animals) look to mom and dad to show them what to do - mom and dad control the resources, but there's no "you this because I'm telling you to" going on. More like, "hey dad, will you give me some food if I do this?"
That said, while dogs don't want or need a leader bossing them around, they DO need a mom or dad whose lead they can follow.
|
|
Aya K
Trad climber
New York
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 12:37am PT
|
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 12:46am PT
|
Aya K: I will agree we are on the "same page."
Unfortunately, it appears that you do not agree with the message in the TV series "Dog Whisperers."
We do!
Dogs want and need: a "pack leader" to give direction.
If you don’t want to train and discipline your dog------you are a "cat person."
Cats don't like Nazis-----dogs love and obey them.
|
|
Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 01:11am PT
|
I don't have problems with a dogs being at the crags. Most are relaxed, happy, and well trained but this... This is wrong.
A young puppy without a place to feel secure, wearing a shock collar as if he's a threat and being without water is just plain abuse. Dang puppy need to be in a safe place where it can roam, "a place that offers the security of home or..." It should be in the company of it's owner.
|
|
flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 03:18am PT
|
untended 7 month old puppy = Cougar food on a rope
|
|
Aya K
Trad climber
New York
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 07:21am PT
|
Fritz, I have HUGE problems with Cesar Milan. Don't believe everything you see on TV! Do your own research, please!
Firstly, the basic premise of his "metjod" is wrong. From what I can tell from his show (I admit I have not read his books or anything), he believes that the majority of problem dog behaviors stem from dominance issues. He suggests that dogs are wolves, and that wolves have an alpha animal who bosses everyone else around - if dogs have an alpha pack leader, they'll be happy. This theory is based on research that was absolutely flawed; even the man who conducted the research has been vehemently trying to get this message out. As I mentioned earlier, neither dogs nor wolves have nor need a dominant pack leader.
Secondly, I find the application of his method that he demonstrates on his show to send an absolutely awful message to his audience. The :"dominance" method of training has been demonstrated to at best be ineffective and at worst highly dangerous by all modern research. He advocates doing "alpha rolls"; having established beyond a shadow of a doubt that no such thing exists in the wild (the only time a wolf will perform an "alpha roll" on another wolf is right before it's going to kill it), the only thing an alpha roll accomplishes is intimidating and frightening your dog. If your dog is freaking out, running around and barking because it is deathly afraid of something, how on earth is flipping it on its back and scaring it into shutting up helping it? How is this furthering your bond with your animal? In modern animal behavior, this is called "learned helplessness"; sure, your animal shuts up and sits quietly, but it is a quiet that is devoid of any emotion or behavior; it is what Cesar calls calm submission. Wrong!
There are MULTIPLE episodes where he literally strangles dogs until their tongues turn visibly blue and they collapse to the ground, gasping for breath; again, he calls this calm submission. I call it strangling. Animal abuse on national television. You may disagree, but absolute least, you can't possibly think that it is appropriate for him to be advocating putting naive owners into situations where they're likely to get bitten - he himself gets bitten on the show pretty often. Sure he has a disclaimer, but I've seen several people who have been hurt by theior dogs after trying his "methods"
Ask any modern veterinary behaviorist; they will tell you that if you have an aggressive dog you do NOT take it and purposely put it into a situation to elicit this aggression! They will tell you that if you have a fearful dog, you do NOT take it and purposely put it into a situation where it will be overwhelmed with fear; this is called flooding and it is absolutely cruel.
I do agree with some of the things he says - exercise is of utmost importance, that people don't realize the effect that their reactions to their dog's behavior has on its subsequent behavior, the importance of a calm demeanor and body language and so on, but this is not what I actually SEE happening on his show. Here's a website I found last week when I was actually having this exact same discussion with someone else who suggested to my friend that she learn how to train her new puppy by watching the Dog Whisperer:
http://www.askdryin.com/dominance.php
It covers actually pretty much all of the issues that I have with CM in a very concise way (much better than I could ever write!) with video examples and so on; I suggest you read it through carefully and compare the videos.
My personal preference is to have a dog who is well behaved because it WANTS to be - because it is motivated to try to please me (which is the goal of modern behavior training), rather than a dog who is well behaved because it has been dominated into submission and only knows what NOT to do to avoid being stared at, rolled, choked or otherwise physically reprimanded (seriously? What year is it? Why are people still advocating choke chains when we have options that work SO much better and SO much safer??). I
|
|
okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
|
|
|
May 11, 2010 - 09:23am PT
|
This gets real polarized, this dog debate thing.
I love dogs, cats, and all sorts of cute little furry things that don't need or want/deserve my love...I'm a real softie, that way.
But I hate it when I'm running in the forest and a large mammal comes crashing through the brush aimed at me, snarling... and then the human comes trotting up and says the cliche that I've heard a hundred times: he's just a puppy, he won't hurt you...as I'm in my fighting stance...
A dog chewed on my face when I was a child- but I don't hold that against all dogs.
One time at an ecologically/politically sensitive area in SE Utah where cattle have more rights than people a woman brought her dog to the crag and went climbing. The dog promptly disappeared into the desert talus for the rest of the day. The owner was unconcerned...I found the dog back at the car as it was getting dark. The owner was still up there somewhere climbing, trying to get in one more pitch.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!