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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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You call that goofing off?
Looks like an hour, maybe two if beer's involved. So yes, I'd call that goofing off. Then again, like Banquo I spend my free time goofing around with metalworking equipment. Nice work, BTW. Surprised the A taper is making a bit of a resurgence.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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does somebody make a drill that won't go
Bap Bap Bap Bap Bap Bap!
it's like, "hear i am, bust me!"
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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Actually, yes. Read a paper on it a couple years back and it's basically a miniaturized microwave antenna that heats the rock in front of the drill bit, make drilling easier (and presumably quieter). Unfortunately the power supply isn't exactly portable, so limited application in climbing.
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/invention/2008/04/microwave-rock-drill.html
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:31am PT
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You call that goofing off? Yes, just goofing off. Glad you like it.
Looks like an hour, maybe two if beer's involved. Probably less than an hour. I cut down an A-Taper chuck adapter ($10, see previous page of thread) with a 4" angle grinder and attached a cable ($0.45, those copper swages are costy). I can't find a cheap source for 1/4" A-Taper bits so that cost $10. I get the 3/8" bits for $6 or 7.
One could easily make the holder on a lathe but the adapters are cheap and come already hardened. In fact, they are very hard and one needs carbide bits to drill holes in them.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:49am PT
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“I am guessing that you can drill faster with a HSS bit compared to a SDS bit because you can put a really sharp edge on the HSS bits.”
Yes, but also because a flat chisel tip will drill faster than a pointed chisel tip. So, not only is an SDS bit tip dull, it is also the wrong shape.
“How many holes are you guys getting per bit before sharpening?”
It depends. I have a stack of 17/64” HSS bits, so for stance drilling quarter-inchers, I put a fresh bit in for each hole in order to make drilling as easy and quick as possible. When drilling rivet ladders, I can get several holes out of one bit – maybe 10 holes if I really milk it. But remember that you can sharpen a HSS drill bit on the rock between holes. This sharpening isn’t as good as using a grinder, and the corners of the chisel tip will still be slightly rounded, but you can add a sharp edge to the main portion of the chisel tip, which definitely helps. I find that compared to 25/64” HSS bits, I rarely have any problems with 17/64” bits binding; it’s basically not even a concern.
With 25/64” HSS bits, I may get 2 or 3 holes before the bit needs to meet the grinder. But that’s for drilling on lead, when drilling speed/time is more important. When replacing quarter-inchers, I start with a 3/8” SDS bit and then once the 1/4” hole is drilled out, I switch to a 25/64” HSS bit (as Dan mentioned). In this case, I try to milk the HSS bit for several holes, until the corners of the chisel tip are so rounded that binding becomes too much of an issue. Then it’s time for a fresh, sharp bit. Sometimes I sharpen the dull bit on the rock between holes.
Banquo, thanks for posting the photos of your drills. For some reason, based on Cragnshag’s 2/27/12 post, I was thinking that you had a new drill design of sorts, rather than a modified commercial piece. Looks like it is a modern and inexpensive version of the old Rawl holder, that is limited to A-taper bits. Do you have A-taper HSS bits for it?
Cool photos, Mucci. It sure seems like it would be difficult to hang on to that 4 oz. mini drill! How are you supposed to hold it? If the bit cannot be removed easily and it’s kind of a one-shot deal, it seems to me to be more of an emergency drill, rather than something that one would use for putting up new routes, no matter how far you have to walk from your car. Have any of you used it on lead yet? 1” buttonheads? 1.5” is pretty much the standard and 1.25” is a shorty.
The drill in the second photo looks a little more reasonable, but still kinda short. On the second drill, what is the length from the cable to the bit end of the holder?
I would be interested in trying out the drill bits if John can make some with a 17/64” straight shank that will fit into a Hurricane holder. A 1/4” HSS bit drills a hole that is too tight for placing buttonheads in hard granite.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:52am PT
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@Banquo- Cheater!!! ;-)
Figured you had made a quick and dirty reamer from A2 or somesuch, but yeah, you can't get quick&dirtier than reworking a $10 holder. Awesome. :)
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 10, 2012 - 02:12am PT
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so we had transformer tanks made out of 3/8 steel,
match drilled the lids with a mag drill, 3/8 hardware so 7/16 bit.
64 holes per tank thru 3/4 inch steel each hole, times 10 tanks = 640 holes,
or 480 inches of steel, so we used cobalt bits which lasted forever as long as you kept the juice flowing,
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
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Looks like it is a modern and inexpensive version of the old Rawl holder, that is limited to A-taper bits. Do you have A-taper HSS bits for it? Same Idea as the Rawl holder but I think the round, hardened wedge for removing the bit works better than the flat type the Rawl used. I don't know if you can get A-Taper HSS bits but the carbide tipped ones are cheap and since the carbide is wider than the shank, they don't bind up as easily. If you like the square cut tip, you can grind down the carbide tipped A-Taper drills. A diamond file (~$20) can also be used to sharpen carbide or HSS bits.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 13, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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Minerals-
John has drilled all of the holes with the two prototype drills I posted.
He uses the 1/4" stock for the chisel tip bit, and places 1/4" x 1.25" buttonheads. He has not had an issue with the placement of the bolt with the 1/4" hole. 1.5" buttonheads are for sport climbs :}
I believe he placed 6 bolts before resharpening. I have not used the drill on lead, but have placed many with my rawl holder using the old chisel tip 5.10 style. Never had an issue with bolt placement either come to think of it.
When/where did you have problems using a 1/4 hss bit, while placing a 1/4" buttonhead? Occasionally I get a dinnerplate, but majority are tight, and would NEVER come out. Replacing them is the proof.
I tend to think of that drill as a backcountry kit, where you are only going to need a hole or two. LIght hammer and that kit is a nice weight savings. Buttonheads with ss hangers, no wrench...Pretty light.
Of course it need some tweaking...So it doesn't crumble when the heavy hitters step up to the plate....
Banquo, that is a great mod and really nice size! Very cool, is that your lead drill? Seems like just what I want to try out.
Edit: 1.25" buttonheads are what John and I use on lead.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Mar 13, 2012 - 02:16am PT
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If a stance is good enough for 1.5", you might as well drill a 3/8" to begin with!
Just kidding! If I had my HSS system dialed like Minerals then I'd do all 1.5" too. When you go upgrade to 3/8" it's such a royal pain getting the recent 1/4" out that you often wonder why you are bothering. But now and then the recent 1/4" pops pretty easily - particularly in grainier rock.
I use mostly 1.25" but it's nice to have some 1.5" for when the rock has surface flakiness or it's a tad grainy. Surface flakiness is pretty common.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
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Of course it need some tweaking...So it doesn't crumble when the heavy hitters step up to the plate....
oops!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 13, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
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HAH!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 13, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Jeremy-
We are talking about drilling in rock not dust.
SUCKA!!!!!
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Mar 14, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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is that your lead drill? Seems like just what I want to try out.
Well it's nothing yet since it hasn't been used. When I drill, which I try to avoid, I use Bob's drill. He always insists that we climb with his gear which saves a lot of wear and tear on my gear.
What I need is 1/4" hangers. I see Moses is selling some at mountaintools but they are $6 which I am sure he needs to break even. Perhaps I need to make some and test them. Homemade hangers seem to be in bad favor these days. Should be fairly easy to come up with something adequate for 1/4" button heads.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Mar 14, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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The 1/4" ones in my picture above are made in the shop. They have been used by john and myself since last season.
We have a run going right now...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 15, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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Thanks for your reply, Banquo. Using a file to sharpen HSS bits seems like it would take a while, but you wouldn’t have to worry about heating up the metal. I use a bench grinder to sharpen HSS bits and try not to get the metal too hot.
Mucci, thanks for the details. I place 1.5” quarter-inchers because it only takes another 15 or 20 seconds (at the most) to drill that extra depth, compared to using 1.25” buttonheads. Sometimes I drill the hole deeper than 1.5” without meaning to. It seems like starting the hole is what takes more time; once you get going, the drilling goes a lot faster.
I have used 17/64” bits for quarter-inchers in the Valley for years. When I started putting up routes in Tuolumne in 2005, I figured that the coarse-grained rock would require a 1/4” HSS bit for buttonheads… so that’s what I used. The bolt bent and the rock cratered when I pounded the bolt in. So, I switched back to 17/64” after that and it has worked fine, and that’s what I have been using ever since. And as Greg mentioned, in good rock, fresh quarter-inchers (in a 17/64” hole) often don’t want to come out when you go to pull them for replacement, leaving you wondering why you are even bothering to replace the bolt! A 1/4” SDS bit will drill a hole that is slightly larger in diameter than 1/4” (same principle as the 3/8” SDS bits). I’d be happy to take one of those minis for a spin to see how it works, even if it’s just on a solid granitic boulder around here for now, and then on a real climb later. If the 1/4” diameter bit still seems like a problem, then maybe we can try 17/64” bits.
“We are talking about drilling in rock not dust.”
LOL. Yeah, drilling a 3/8” hole in the Fishers with a hand drill is like drilling through butter… even with a SureDrillsSlow bit…
Banquo, if you are looking for hangers to use with 1/4” buttonheads, I recommend the Mad Rock hangers with a 5/16” washer. The Mad Rock hangers are not too expensive and the stainless material is actually thinner than that of an SMC hanger, which partially makes up for using a washer. I have been quite happy with them… except for when the price went from $1.95 each to $2.95 each. They seem to be fairly durable for repeated use and the rounded biner contact area is nice. Those excessively heavy Fixe hangers are way too sharp and like to eat biners.
http://store.madrockclimbing.com/sentinelhanger.aspx
As far as homemade hangers go, I see no problem with them as long as they are not sharp, do not protrude from the rock too much, and physics is taken into account to minimize leverage on the bolt.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Lots of good advice here, maybe too much for me!
It's been a while.
Just tell me what to buy! Holder, bits, bolts, and hangers.
For use in granite. Free climbing protection bolts and anchors.
The petzl is available here in town- sixty something bucks...
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Checked out the petzl- it IS tiny, and the corresponding bits were 50 bucks.
Time to go internet shopping i guess.
Anyone?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Get the Petzl RocPec, it's what's readily available. 50 bucks for a bit is nonsense. Pick up SDS bits at Ace Hardware or Home Depot, bosch and Hilti bits work best. Don't waste your time with the more expensive Hilti double tipped (cross pattern) bits as they drill slower in a hand drill, and don't get the cheapo galvanized masonry bits.
Now find a bench grinder and slowly grind down the tips following the existing contours of the tip. You should have two grinds on each side of the bit, one larger than the other. Careful not to heat the tip too much.
Now go out and drill. You get about 6 to 10 holes before you need to re sharpen. Using an unmodified SDS bit will get you around 6 holes but drill significantly slower from the start.
Climb Axe had a sale on stainless hangers recently. 1.95ea no shipping charges. If they still offer that, you can't beat that price anywhere.
As for bolts, depends on what you want.
Confast has the bolts I like. As good as if not better quality than Powers at a much cheaper price. And they're 1/4in rivets (split drive) bolts are much stronger than anyone elses around.
http://www.confast.com/products/thunderstud-anchor.aspx
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