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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Who did god sacrifice his son jesus to, if indeed he sacrificed his son to pay for our sins?
If I gave up some $$$ to pay for a traffic ticket then I will not get that $$$ back... right? If you sacrifice something then you don't get it back... right?
So what, according to the bible, happened to Jesus?
Well he supposedly died and a few days later came back to life and then went up to heaven to spend the rest of eternity hanging with dad and the ghost guy.
So it would appear that god really gave up nothing to pay for our sins. He got jesus back and even better, got him home in heaven, and away from this nasty earth.
It would appear, according to the bible, that god sacrificed his only son to himself!!
Kind of like paying for that traffic ticket and then getting the money back in the mail a few days later!!!
A more convincing "sacrifice" would have been sending jesus to hell and having him spend eternity suffering for us down there. Now that would have been a real sacrifice! Turns out that god is actually an "indian giver" (a term not used here to insult Native Americans but a slang that has some meaning to most readers).
Things like this show me that the bible is full of nonsense and too preposterous to take seriously.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Funny thing about you "Sissy Christians"... you never answer the hard questions prefering instead to spew verse and line ... quoting the bible is not answering anything, just a way for you to duck the questions. The bible says to question it and yet you never do and you always duck the questions when the bible makes no sense. All you can do is fall back on blind acceptance... not very enlightening to rational people in this day and age, you convince no one but yourselves!!! Preaching to the choir I think you call it.
You still haven't answered my question T7, on the Ark post... the one about why you were saved by praying to jesus but the other innocent children who prayed to him were not. Hard question that one.
"Sissy Christains" believe only the "good stuff" and ignore the parts of the bible that don't make sense or give obviously stupid and irrational instructions... like anyone working on the sabbath should be put to death, as should adulterers, children who don't obey their parents, people who take the lords name in vain ... blah, blah, blah..on and on it goes and all you can do is spew the same old tired verse and line.
Blind faith is all you offer and yet you expect an intelligent person to accept that as a "reason" to believe in your religion? The world is full of religions that ask us for blind faith, in fact they all do!!... Yours is no different than any other.
I guess if you spew enough you will come to believe it yourself...
BTW you didn't answer my question two posts back... What was the sacrifice god made if he got back his son in just a few days???
Lots of people have died a lot harder deaths than jesus did in his few hours of suffering and over a lot longer periods of time. Think about being impaled on a sharp post like many thousands of people were back in those times. That sounds pretty bad to me. Seems like jesus got off pretty easy compared to some and not only that but he got to come back and hang out in heaven!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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tommy spyglass!
Your full of it! You obviously haven't read the discourse that Jingy and I had starting a couple pages back April 18th 2:22PM which Jingy finish's with "you don't have to lecture on the subject, next time just post your favorite passages...!" Where I schooled him on...just read it yourself. So I decided to follow his suggestion.
And numerous other threads were questions identical to yours were posted and answered ie. Nortons thread "Creationist take a called strike...run to dugout"...about 6 months of discourse there, some civil, and much of it ranting hate filled crap! We just get tired of it. You guy's come on and then everyone gets pissed at US for debating!
Look what Mighty Hiker told me on the Ark thread...it get's real old real fast(I was about to answer your questions, and MH pops up and...so the hell with you guys. You don't want to have a discusion, your full of hate and anger.
It gets old...And who the hell are you to instruct me in such regards...sissy?? Those questions get asked over and over.
To begin with the term "Indian giver" is in no way derogatory towards Native Americans!! It was initiated/directed towards the US government because they continued to give land to the different tribes and then take it back, over and over. Therefore the term Indian giver(as was Uncle Sam/the Whiteman)somehow, our generation came to see it in reverse/Indians taking back what they gave...not so! Nothing to appologise for!
To begin with, it has only been aledged that he(Mr. Griggs)killed 30+ children/people. They haven't gotten any hard evidence.
But that's a reprehensible question you ask. All I know is that He responded to me. But I do know this, all the other children went to be with Him. You should ask Him yourself...you will meet Him some day.
He paid the penelty of the whole worlds sin. He took on the sin of the world! You couldn't withstand one second of the penalty, the guilt and condemnation and wrath of a perfectly holy God being set upon Him(His Son). You, in your ignorance, don't have a clue as to the burden, the torment that He bore for you, let alone the whole world.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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elcap!
I believed the moment I met Him. You are clueless dude!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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elcap- "Sissy Christians"
I would like to see you say that one of the elevin Apostles that died as Martyr's death. Or one of the thousands that were fed to the lions or were burnt at the stake. Or the tens of thousands that have been or are continuing to be sacrificed as Martyr's.
Sissies??
You are clueless.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The christianists very early on learned a key lesson from their jewish brethren, as they slowly separated. Always make sure that you write the history of whatever happened - it makes you look better. Some of the first and most successful practitioners of revisionist history.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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You prove my point friend... spew, spew, spew verse and line... but no answers!!
Answer the question.
How could there be a sacrifice if god got back his son? What did god give up?
Now I am going to help you out on this one. My girlfriend is a believer and all that goes with that. When I ask her about such things she has a very good answer, that I respect. Says that it seemingly makes no sense upon reading and that she does not know what the answers are and about some things perhaps she will never know... she accepts that she will not know everything about the bibles true meaning. However, for her, inconsistancies are not enough to defeat her belief.
Refreshing... an honest answer from a Christian!! No throwing spew against the wall, like you guys do, to see what sticks! No Sissy Christian here boys... she is smart enough to see inconsistancies and does not duck from them like you guys do. You might consider that approach instead of trying to somehow deny the inconsistancies exist. Religion by nature is not logical or rational... if it was, then we could prove it, and there would be no need for faith!!
BTW to say that no one has lived without sin is contradicted by your own bible spew.
Job 1:1 "There was a man,...whose name was Job and that man was perfect and upright." "Perfect and upright" I think that means what it says.
That contradicts Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and come up short of the glory of god."
Also it has been many hundreds of years since the bible was written... how do you know that since the writing of the bible that some of the millions of humans who have lived have not done so without sin? Many children have been born and have died at such young ages that they never had the opportunity to sin.
The bible is full of things like that... makes it seem impossible to me and thus I could never believe it ... but maybe not impossible for you.
T7 I didnt say that those who suffered and died were Sissy Christians... I said that YOU are a Sissy Christian. ie..Someone who just believes the good stuff and ignores the rest. You my man are the clueless one.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"All men will hate you because of Me." Matthew 10:22
Check your heart, it's full of hate.
I have shared the Gospel with many people over the last 40 years(thousands)and the majority were civil and many were curios/inquisitive and searching. Many had the same questions that I have attempted to answer here on S/T the last 7-8 months. But you guy's are filled with bitterness and hate...your not worth the time!!!
Adios!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I answered the first question(in regards to the thirty others)with exactly that, "I don't know why He chose to respond to me". And you call that spew??
And I answered the question briefly in regards to the price that was paid. An unblemished perfect sacrifice(JC)that paid the ultimate sacrifice for your, mine and the worlds sin. I don't expect you to understand that because you are in complete denial in regards to your need for a savior. Have no relationship(spiritual)with a loving savior. No guilt or admission of sin.
So you can't relate to the price that Jesus Christ paid for the worlds sins. All the hideous acts of men thruout the centuries. He had to carry the burden/guilt/punishment and wrath of God in our place.
Do you have any clue as to what you have said up thread??
What you call spew, is testimony...period.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Spew spew... a favorite tactic of christians is to play the "you are full of hate" card. I see jesus, god, spiderman, captain america, the tooth fairy all in the same light... I don't believe in any of them. To me they have not been proven to exist. I don't hate any of them, how could I?... I don't think they exist!!
I have been the one trying to demonstrate to you why I find them unbelievable. It is you who are not willing to answer the questions in a convincing manner. Spewing 2,000 year old biblical verses doesn't do it for me... all religions have books with old verses in them... why should yours be any more believable than theirs? I find your attributing your escape from death to a prayer to be illogical. Thats why I mentioned the other children... they prayed and they died. Jesus ignored them so maybe he isnt such a good guy afterall. Maybe the guy liked your face or maybe he didnt feel like killing you that day... there could be many reasons you lived that have nothing to do with jesus. I was merely pointing that out.
It remindes me of the logic of the south pacific islanders... A volcano erupts so they decide to throw some vigins into it to pacify the volcano god... they do and soon the volcano stops... conclusion... throwing virgins into volcanoes stops them from erupting. Your logic, or lack thereof, is of a similar nature.
And you are right about me not needing a savior... I am willing to pay for my own sins (whatever "sins" really means) and admitt my faults... I don't need anyone to do that for me.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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If you study Job you will realise that he did fall short(sin)when he started worrying about his sons and making sacrifices. But that is besides the point. Job was like any perfect and upright person because he confessed his sins to God and made sacrifices(as were called for back then). He addmitted his sins and was therefor considered perfect and upright.
Yes, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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And the people living after the bible was written? I suppose then that you consider yourself "perfect and upright" too?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I quoted Jesus Christ "All men will hate you because of Me"!
If you consider His words/prophecy spew so be it...YOU will be held accountable.
Once again, check your heart. Your bitter, angry and hateful!
If you consider our testimony, and the word of God "spew, spew, spew" then fine, continue to do so. For I don't find you worth the time! Along with the 10 or 15 other haters like MH and the guy whose favorite word is "fuknard"(weschrist)and dirtbag etc, etc. the list goes on and on!
Get a life! This one is the closest your gonna get to heaven, you might as well enjoy it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I consider myself forgiven.
I am a sinner just like everyone else.
We are under the law of grace.
In the Old Testament they were under the Law(Ten Comandements etc)required a blood sacrifice.
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart." Psalm 51:17 Not money, and the blood sacrifice has been paid once and for all.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Hold on TripL7...
ElCap,
The reason we Christians tend to answer with God's Word is, for one, His Word is the truth, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6. So, if He is the truth what does that make anything that I, or you, or anyone else, can come up with? That's right, lies! Anything other than God's system of management is a bunch of lies! I'm sure this will ruffle your and many other's feathers but the Bible if very clear on this. Try this on for size. Because you are not saved (I'm assuming), and to answer your question as to "you never answer the hard questions prefering instead to spew verse and line", according to the Bible (KJV) (my notations, or that of the Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary, are made in parenthesis or underlined):
"42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me (You see, Jesus IS God, in the flesh! If God came down as He is, we wouldn't be able to stand in the presence of Him, so He made himself of our image, so we could "stand" Him! God wasn't selfish, He crucified Himself!).
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts (to have carnal desire; that which is not of God) of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." - 1 John 4:8.
Did you get that? Your spiritual father is the devil (and mine too, before I was saved)! And the "lust of your father ye will do... for he is a liar, and the father of it"! Because I now have the Holy Spirit within me, the devil can no longer "possess" me, but he can still "oppress" me (outside pressure). This is why I try not to answer of myself but instead try (key word) to rely on God's word for His is Truth!
Another reason we answer with scripture is because, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. - Genesis 6:5 or, "For if a man think himself (my stinkin' thinkin') to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. - Galatians 6:3.
Also, according to the Bible, the reason that you think we "never answer the hard questions" is that, "He that is of God heareth God's words (you see, we ARE answering your questions!): ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
There is so much more to God's Word and I am not claiming to be anything but a pile of dirt. El Cap, I'll say a prayer for you with hopes that one day you'll be witnessing God's Word, the Truth, to others as I have chosen to do to you this day.
I am nothing, He is everything,
Gary
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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elcap!
You can believe what you want about what I encountered and the outcome. As far as he was concerned, he was very serious, like I said he told me what he was going to do(torture)and "that they will think you were hit by a train". He didn't casually suggest these things, the guy was seething hate, and maniacal, he was beyond discription. He also had a hole dug in the ground.
But the filling of the Holy Spirit, Gods presents is what intervened. I don't expect you to understand or believe. His power is beyond discription. I could care less if people believe, I do my part in sharing my testimony...some day you will believe.
And you know little about me and what I have done over the last forty years as a Christian. I have had guns stuck in my face etc. etc. I spent 5 years on the streets of L.A.(Hollywood etc.)ministering to lost youth. All the years I spent taken care of the infirmed in nursing homes ministering to their needs and there loved ones. Or ministering in prisons.
Like I said I have spent the last 8 months sharing the best as I could on such threads as Norton's etc(go read all of that starting around 1600. Usually intervening to answer questions etc. But over the weekend I decided to just ignore the majority of posts that are just plain hateful confrontations and name calling, it gets way old. So I decided to not respond to yours truly, and I relay don't have any heart/conviction to answer you and the majority of bitter souls here on S/T. It just a waste of time and sours the spirit.
Like the Apostles were instructed in the New Testament:
"Who shall ever not receive you, nor hear you words, when you depart from that house or city, shake the dust of your feet..." Mark 6:11
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Trip,
Mark 6:11 - "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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El Cap,
Job 1:1 -
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was (key word) perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil...
Job 1:22 -
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly...
Job 3:1 -
After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
I interpret this to mean that Job was perfect until he sinned.
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