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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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Ya know, the whole question of whether/how much the gubmint is less than perfect doesn't really address the essence of this issue, which is that making unnecessary intrusions into the natural world is something best avoided if respect for it has any meaning to you.
We can all cite instances of stupid gov't actions. This doesn't actually matter. What matters is that our presence at the wrong time in the birds' life cycle can be disastrous for their survival, hence Coz' story.
All the rest, with the bathrooms and the budgets and the black helicopters, is just so much blather.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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Don't need no stinking lists..
Although the Brown bear is not an endangered species I fully support the closure of all established campgrounds/lodging in Yosemite.
All species (including/especially Humans) are in danger of extinction at the hands of Humans.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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"All species (including/especially Humans) are in danger of extinction at the hands of Humans."
Humans, ah yes ...
We should now close this planet earth as we are becoming endangered .....
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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Thanks Rhodo for bringing the conversation back to the point of the thread, protecting the peregrines.
Yes, ECIYA, I too have observed waste in the government FROM WITHIN...wow. AND, I have observed even more waste from individuals in our society. Like Rhodo pointed out the government being a human invention is not perfect, far from.
However, in this instance, the birds are being protected by the generous donations of the folks who support the Yosemite Fund, and the generous donations of friends and family of Jeff Maurer though his memorial fund. Lets reel it in here, and talk about what is relevent to the conversation.
Yo Buju-Rodger, who were you planning on climbing within the closure with this spring? Wasn't it the first week in June for the NA? Man, we'll have to do it in September or October...bummer.
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Buju
Trad climber
the range of light
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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Yeah Jesse...I think we may need to settle on one of the other 80 routes on El Cap for the spring AND do the NA in the fall!
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HighStepQueen
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Thanks, Peregrines, for not nesting on the Nose!
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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There is plenty of trash talk about the environmental impact of rock climbing and a lot of it has to do with bozos that feel that their testicular ego is more important then the surrounding nature. Trashing vegetation, leaving tape all over the place, shitting in the woods and not covering, ignoring closures due to bird nesting - it's all part of the same stupid pattern.
There is plenty of rock out there, you don't have to restrict yourself to this specific climb at this specific time. Think of it the same way you think of wet routes - well, it's wet and I'll do it next time.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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No no no you got it all wrong dude!
it is the MAN keeping you DOWN
when you gonna learn?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Apr 11, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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So a dozen or so routes are closed for a few months and there is all this bitching? Get a life! This has already impacted my future plans but, hey, that's life! One reason I love being up on El Cap is that it's wild and I never know what I'll see. I don't want it to be sterile. Life goes on and there are other routes to enjoy.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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So a few years ago when the NPS cut down over 100 trees at Inspiration Point so the Tourons could better enjoy the view, that was protecting the resources?
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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So we close an area because a falcon pair live on a blank cliff.
So ... let me get this right ... NOT AN ENDANGERED SPECIES; NOT A THREATENED SPECIES (see my post earlier);
The park can make decisions that affect citizen's rights, let's leave it at that, even though I disagree with the rationale and reasoning as to why the NPS has chosen to protect a non-listed species ..
This is kind of like closing a highway down, because a kangaroo rat, MIGHT get run over by those cruel and thoughtless humans driving their cars.
Just watch out, it's a slippery slope ... today the peregrin, tomorrow it will be something else.
Wake up people, you all are missing the point ... Government over reaching protection vs. citizen's rights.
RB has left the building.
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greg orton
climber
Southwest Oregon
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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In the 1996 Guide to Management of Peregrine Falcons at the Eyrie, Tom Cade wrote that "Seasonal restrictions on climbing and trail-closures may be necessary in some places, but the draconian regulations that have been imposed on human access to Peregrines and Peregrine habitat in Great Britain should not be necessary in North America and probably would not be tolerated by the American public."
Today the discussions I'm reading here are going on at nearly every climbing area across the country. The questions are "how do we move from arbitrary restictions on public access to those that are actually necessary for maintaining Peregrine as an esential element of our climbing environment. Today, there is a need to hold land manager's accountable for backing off of the arbitrary and overly restrictive closures that became routinely accepted policy in the '90s.
For the most part though, closures at Yosemite have been the exception. It sounds to me that they have made an effort to locate the eyrie ledge and close areas within site of the eyrie (nest). These guidelines were also recommend by the Access Fund in "Raptors and Climbers, Guidance for Managing Technical Climber and Protecting Raptor Nest Sites.", 1997. My understanding is that the eyrie on El Cap has been watch pretty closely. In the 1996 Mangement Plan (Cade et al. pp 67), the statement on the potential effect from climbers was qualified with the observation, "However, it must be borne in mind that in many cases the Peregrines have chosen to reoccupy a cliff that is already being climbed, and many pairs do not seem disturbed by climbing that does not directly approach the nest. For example, El Capitan in Yosemite Valley has hosted a pair of Peregrine since 1978. This rock undergoes tremendous climbing pressure throughout the nesting season, except in an area of seasonal closure around the actual eyrie. The Peregrine are not at all disturbed by climbers on other portions of the face,.." I've actually had the fledged young land just out of arms length and quietly watch me climb (this was in Southwest Oregon).
However unless I've missed something, the stated closure for NA Wall fails to address two critical elements which the public has a right to expect to be included in every closure that addresses raptors (listed or not).
1) The site shall be monitored and if no activity is observed by (date will very by elevation and latitude, check with USF&W in your area for a reasonable date),cease area closure and seasonal restrictions. Notify climbers and remove signs.
2) Determine fledging success. Two weeks after young fledge, cease area closure and seasonal restrictions, notify climbers and remove signs.
The national movement that is taking shape is to demand these three items be included in every raptor closure management plan:
1) A seasonal closure of the Primary Area that is within sight of the nest ledge.
2) Lift closure when the site is found to be inactive.
3) Lift the closure 2 weeks after the young are of fledging age.
The Park Services July 31 date is an arbitrary and capricious date. This date is a fallacious date that was cut and pasted into nearly every Peregrine Management Plan that came out of the '90s regardless of elevation or latitude.
I am in support of reasonable closures. Peregrine chicks will be most sensitive to disturbance during brooding until they can thermal regulate (about 10 days of age). After that the concern is that climbers can distract the adults away from the eyrie or from the hunting. Chick flege at about six weeks of age. Therefore chicks that hatch early May will leave the nest around the middle of June. Males usually fledge about 3 to 5 days before females. The young normally stay in the area for four to six weeks after fledging. The parents continue to supply the young with food while they develop their hunting skills.
Yosemite has a history of working with climbers. The door should be somewhat open to you to hold managers accountable for a more reasonable and site specific closure period. Send the Park Superintendent a letter by snail mail supporting the reasonable protection of Peregrine in the Park and requesting a more reasonable closure period.
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R.B.
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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COZ,
I read your post (story) about the abandonment of the chicks. I would feel bad about that ... but you have to question if it was really YOUR FAULT! There are times when birds bail ... the instinct to protect their young would more than likely overide the temporary disturbance your passage may have created. Now, if you handled the chicks, that may be another story as the human stench (can) have an effect, we have all learned those storys in BIO 101.
The bottom line is you DO NOT KNOW CONCLUSIVELY that the cause and effect of that scenerio was your fault.
PS - I still advocate closing only 1-2 routes on both sides of the nest.
Pretty sure they will be OK with it as long as you aint lobbing grenades at 'em.
Respectfully, RB
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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nice wildlife image ... love the blue tail.
Us climbers are the visitor's and we need to respect that.
I saw a brown bag once at the base of EL Crap. I kicked it and it moved. Looking inside it, I saw maggots feasting on the human deffecate. Also the millipedes at the base were rather prolific as well.
Ahh, the smell of napalm in the morn ...
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Gabe
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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Good work Jesse! I hope to run into you soon man. Look out for those perigrins, they bite the ear-lobes off healthy subjects.....bad portaledge dreams.........
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Some pretty classic arguments in here:
What is to say that another group of environmentalists, private interests etc. decide to advocate a closure for their cause (species) and cough up a large chunk if change to do so and donate it to the Yosemite Fund. Does that mean they too well be afforded the same protection by the Super?
 the classic 'cabal of mysteriously motivated wealthy people' paranoid rant
"I seriously wonder if the common Raven would be protected if for any reason their nesting behavior was intruded upon by humans, any where within the Valley Walls, and their young off springs were left to die as their parents departed the nest in fear of the humans."
--yer basic straw man. If ravens were as uncommon as peregrines, they might indeed be afforded the same protection. But, um, they're not.
"Last but not least, there sure as hell have to be a pair/s of Peregrines nesting near the cables of 1/2 Dome. If in fact there were an active nest found within close vicinity of the Cables, would you, the NPS, close the Cables to the tens of thousands of tourists for the same amount of time? Or the Falls Trail or better yet the West Tunnel (SR41) Entrance... Ten bucks says No! And that is the basis of my point."
--leaving aside the question of whether peregrines nest on 45-degree slabs, another remains: what exactly is your point? that the aforementioned International Raptor Conspiracy is wealthy enough to fund bird studies, but isn't sufficiently evil to close roads? thay they prefer to spend their money to inconvenience a handful of climbers instead of striking at the heart of industrial tourism?
"Oh yeah, 20 bucks says that ONLY the researchers are allowed to access the closures...right? And what are they researching? After 20 plus years, how much more can one research the habits/behaviors of the Peregrine? Aren't [sic] their presence just as intrusive to the nesting birds as any other human?
Far more behind the closed doors of the Supers Office scene to all this than meets the eye I tell ya."
--Did you you see the helicopter? it was black! like Obama!
"So a few years ago when the NPS cut down over 100 trees at Inspiration Point so the Tourons could better enjoy the view, that was protecting the resources?"
--apropos of nothing
"This is kind of like closing a highway down, because a kangaroo rat, MIGHT get run over by those cruel and thoughtless humans driving their cars."
-- Lemme get this straight: El Cap is a road, constructed by people for their own uses?
"Just watch out, it's a slippery slope... today the peregrin, tomorrow it will be something else."
--Mark my words, sonny.
"Wake up people, you all are missing the point ... Government over reaching protection vs. citizen's rights."
--'Rights'...what are those? The right to live one's life undisturbed by greater powers? The right to raise little ones without fear of unnatural intrusion? The right to conduct oneself as ones ancestors have for millennia? If you value these, then the peregrines' rights are looking good, because that's all they're trying to do. It is only in a completely human-centered world, where one is either a human citizen or an obstacle, that 'citizens' rights' take precedence over all living things.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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The North American White Breasted and Freckled Peregrine is no longer an Endangered Species and has been off the ESL since the Summer of 1999. They are in fact proliferating rather well throughout the Sierra.
What are we talking about, 200 breeding pairs? A single epidemic of some bizarre avian illness can easily make such a group extinct, well beyond the the Endangered Species List.
My question to Jesse and all Raptor Closure hooya's, the transitory seasonal Swallows (Fly Catcher) and Ravens nest all over those walls as well. As do other species of birds. Why don't they get afforded the same protection status when one of their nests with chicks is found? Very simple. Bird of prey (or any predators, for that matter) are far more vulnerable to human influence as they require bigger habitats and are far less adaptable to the changes in food sources.
It's very comfortable to blame the government for your lack of desire to protect the environment. You leave trash in the middle of the forest - well that's because I don't like The Government telling me what to do. You leave a pile sh#t off the trail - well, that's because I don't like The Government telling me I can't just poo in the wilderness. The Americans are not alone here, if you want to see this sort of mentality taken to the max - go to Russia. In any case, laziness and carelessness do not pass for civil disobedience.
Oh yeah, Raven's can adapt to more environments than the Peregrine could ever try to. To me, that makes them far more powerful. Off course. That makes the city rats, roaches and pigeons most worthy of protection. Let's protect the species that are weak because they need protection.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 12, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Greg Orton makes a great point...and I'll echo that I'm glad they aren't closing the entire cliff.
But Greg, even though Jesse didn't spell out all they details of the plan here, in the past they have monitored the nests closely and removed climbing restrictions asap (example: Rostrum nest). When the restrictions were lifted notes were posted here and in Camp 4.
btw,
I took a Peregrine monitoring class with Greg at the Roseberg USFW office a few years ago. It was really interesting, and Greg really knows his stuff when it comes to these birds and their habitat.
Thanks for the post Greg. And ps we need some more guidebooks at the gym ;)
Matt
edit: oh and yeah I tend to agree with Mike. There are tons of Peregrines around El Cap. They hang out near the climbers. I think closing the one route that holds the nest so climbers don't accidentally climb right through it and send the poor chicks to the deck would be sufficient....but I'm no expert.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2010 - 02:16am PT
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Greg, we will lift/end the closures in certain areas if the peregrines abandon their nests or never occupy a closed eyrie. We start the season off with historic eyries closed. Last year we lifted the closure on a couple areas by May.
In Yosemite we have changed the closure dates from Jan. 1st through Aug. 1st to March 1st though August 1st. Many other climbing areas still start the closure periods in January. The August 1st date is sometimes a couple weeks later and sometimes a couple weeks earlier than the ideal period depending on weather and other factors. We want to be consistent, but we will also try to open areas early if the fledlings are thriving and have stopped occupying the eyries.
We have also reduced the size of the previous El Capitan closures, and are allowing climbers to climb the initial 4 pitches. Through observation and cooperation with climbers we could continue to reduce recreational impacts for climbers.
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but maybe instead of complaining about the Yosemite closures, it may be a good idea for folks to contact their local land managers and point to how Yosemite is managing closures to minimize impacts on climbers.
Jesse
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 12, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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That is the way Nature works. That is why the species that adapts continues to exist. That's a wounderful excuse for not taking any measures to protect the environment or endangered species. It perfect - "why do something, it's just Nature taking it's course". As I said, a perfect excuse for laziness and indifference.
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