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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 29, 2005 - 12:54pm PT
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Soccer is a metaphor for life as it is lived in many South American and Latin-influenced Euro nations. There is the love of pageantry, with colorful uniforms and bitter rivalries. There is incredible hero worshiping and arch foes and fighting and celebrations and drinking as the crowd gets worked up like nobodies business. Intense emotions are shown on the "pitch," both real and entirely false (Italians). Most of all there is frantic action, with people running this way and that -- with almost no results (scoring) and plenty of erudite justification why this is so and why this is fantastic. A great game by any measure.
JL
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Hootervillian
climber
another houseboat, Marathon Key, FL
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Oct 29, 2005 - 12:59pm PT
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mettere a dormire
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mingleefu
climber
Champaign, IL --> Denver, CO
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Oct 29, 2005 - 05:52pm PT
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"Wow, way to cherry-pick what I said"
You're just pissed because I've brought to light that what you're saying is nothing more than "it can be done better." You haven't really suggested how, except for more Defensive strategy, giving anecdotes that were illegal (though perhaps unchecked at the time) and very blurry semblences of offensive strategy. Add a 4th guy? Genious!! Why hasn't any team ever thought of that??! (Corner kicks - 8 man attack. Break away-1 or 2. Everything else- Everything in between.) Everybody loves a playmaker because they're rare. They're rare because it just ain't that easy.
Largo: "A great game by any measure."
'nuff said.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Oct 29, 2005 - 06:28pm PT
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It is a great game, I never denied that. I'm just saying that offensive strategy is subject to a lot of conventional wisdom and received ideas, and that a team that was willing to break from that would be a monster squad, assuming they had the talent in the first place and took the time to do it right. With regard to my examples you're confusing the inspiration for my idea with the idea itself, and though I thought I made it clear that playing a rougher game isn't what I envision at all you seem to want to bring that up again. I know I've said a lot of stuff in the various iterations of this argument, but I can still boil it down: why can't offense be proactive rather than opportunistic?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 29, 2005 - 06:32pm PT
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Landgolier wrote: "With regard to my examples you're confusing the inspiration for my idea with the idea itself, and though I thought I made it clear . . ."
Man, that sailed right over my head like an errant corner kick.
JL
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mingleefu
climber
Champaign, IL --> Denver, CO
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Oct 29, 2005 - 08:34pm PT
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"why can't offense be proactive rather than opportunistic?"
To be proactive would require having the talent. Being opportunistic means taking the time to do it right. You just said that the "monster squad" is both, so I don't need to.
I don't mean to be insulting here, but it's sounding to me that you just want more offensive action, same as anyone who doesn't understand the game.
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lagr01
Sport climber
Venezuela
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Oct 29, 2005 - 09:18pm PT
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Largo said:
"Most of all there is frantic action, with people running this way and that -- with almost no results (scoring) and plenty of erudite justification why this is so and why this is fantastic."
I think that's the sign that shows that you (as most people in the US)just don't get the sport. So obssesed with scoring, what's the point of scoring a lot if the game is crap? it's like having sex with a hooker, easy and monotonous, have you ever heard of quality over quantity? if any moron that can kick a ball scores then what's the point of watching it, the only way you can see a game with both teams scoring a bunch of goals is when those teams suck so much that is too easy to score. Football is about speed, endurance and the most important factors: TECHNIQUE AND ABILITY. The point of watching football is to see great players doing great plays (like the ones in the video I posted previosly), everyone wants their favorite team to win of course, but the most important thing is that they play brilliantly.
And about the post with the gay vibe, you know, the one with the NFL guy...yes I'm sure that guy is strong and he may be fast, but for how long? 10-20 meters? how much time can that guy run before breaking his knees or having a heart attack? 10-15 minutes? and what about the steroids cocktail that guy likes to call his blood?
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Hootervillian
climber
another houseboat, Marathon Key, FL
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Oct 29, 2005 - 09:45pm PT
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lagr01-
"...plenty of erudite justification..." was a compliment to the game. Largo obviously appreciates futbol. It's those rule-bending capitalists your after.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 30, 2005 - 12:10am PT
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Lagr01, I'll be in Valencia, Edo. Carabobo (my home is there) in Dec. if you want to talk smack about futbol.
JL
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lagr01
Sport climber
Venezuela
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Oct 30, 2005 - 08:12am PT
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Hootervillian said:
"Largo obviously appreciates futbol. It's those rule-bending capitalists your after."
oops, my mistake
Largo said:
"Lagr01, I'll be in Valencia, Edo. Carabobo (my home is there) in Dec. if you want to talk smack about futbol."
Oh, I didn't know you live in Venezuela (are you masochistic or something? ;P), I'm in Caracas. My name is Luis BTW.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Oct 30, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
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I don't want more offensive action from a spectator's point of view. I find watching most sports to be pretty dull anyway unless the crowd is into it, and then I'm half watching them anyway. I also think anybody who loves the game and thinks that greater popularity in the states would be good for it probably should watch a few more American sports.
My main interest in sports is in the strategies that go into playing them. My proposed proactive offensive game wouldn't really be any less dull to watch for the people who find soccer boring anyway. Yeah, you might get to see 10 goals in a game, but again, a goal takes about 20 seconds to go from a midfield pass-around to the celebratory phase, so anybody not satisfied by maybe a minute of scoring action in a normal game isn't going to get fired up over 3 minutes worth. Besides, generally speaking I don't buy the "Americans won't watch soccer on TV because it's boring and there aren't enough money shots" argument anyway, and I have a one word counterargument: NASCAR.
Ball control and finesse will always be the hallmarks of soccer, and the rules of the game do create a certain defensive bias, just like the rules of basketball do make it a more offensive sport. That doesn't mean that there are no strategic lessons from one that don't apply to the other; I think we can all agree that the NBA could learn a lot from the idea of an impenetrable defense. A lot of great action is always going to happen at midfield, just like a lot of great runs in football will take you from your own 35 to the 50, and the drive will still fail 5 plays later, or a lot of the most exciting and poetic moments in baseball will be on a 3-2 with one out and a pickpocket on first with a right handed pitcher communicating with the catcher by pure eye contact about when the exact moment to throw to first is. That can be a hell of a thing even if it's 1-1 in the 3rd and it's the yankees against some team that will be lucky to win 80 games.
I'm sticking to my simple argument: what's wrong with trying to play the game with all the same moves and just as tight a defense, but with an offense that regards loafing around at midfield as a waste of time and sees every field situation as an opportunity to put the ball in the net in the next 5 or 6 moves? Is playing rooks and pawns at midfield for extended periods to try to massage the defensive side into what you consider to be a scoring opportunity really necessary, or could you make more hay by taking what you can get and then taking it to the hole?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 30, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
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Can't even read half of this but the greatest game of all is chess and soccer/football is the closest athletic expression of it.
American football is americanized chess as we prefer the dilineation of offense/defense.
Baseball is my favorite, probably because its not as athleticly demanding so I can still play it. Also its like Texas Hold'em, all you need is a chip and a chair. It can be the ninth inning, down by 20, two outs, two strikes, and you can still come out a winner.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Piton Ron, good analogy, chess and futbol/fussball/football, oh what the hell, soccer (association football).
Hey Radical, how was the climbing in Brazil? Speaking of Dutch football, the Clockwork Orange teams of 1974 and 1978 World Cups were something to watch, total football. Should have beat West Germany in 1974 (in Germany) and should have beat Argentina (in Argentina) in 1978.
I watched both games live (SIN, Spanish network in California, only TV channel you could watch the WC back then in Cali). While both of those teams had some great players, the Dutch were fabulous. Just goes to show that the best team/man doesn't always win (I'll refrain from any political references to that).
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