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jstan
climber
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Mar 18, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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Despite various assurances that persons without medical training may safely dose themselves with these various substances, I remain unpersuaded. Just consider all of the side effects now being found for many of the widely used and FDA approved drugs. After many millions of doses. And as for drug interactions, we are only just beginning to catalog those, much less understand them.
There are alternative explanations for the phenomenon of finding "new realities" via psychedelic drugs. These questions may begin to receive systematic study probably only after the drugs have become commercially exploited - if then.
I believe it was Jan who suggested new states can be reached without the use of drugs. It clearly is more difficult but possible. The logic for staying organic till you know what you are doing with good statistical significance seems clear to this observer.
Others, of course, are free to do as they choose.
It would be helpful if such experiments were certain not subsequently to burden the taxpayer. I hate to sound like a conservative but there it is.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Mar 18, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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I did dose again, after the heavy trip as a too~youngster, figuring if LSD could take me to such scary places, it surely could transport me someplace beautiful as well. It did, many times., and was the catalyst for positive changes in my life.
Then, after not doing it for years and years, figuring I was done~ that I'd seen the highest highs and lowest lows, I dosed again and went surfing on a perfect day. Best...thing...ever.
As we mature, so do our minds. If you think you've experienced it all, think again. You are a far different person than you were when you took it in the past., so the trip will also be very different.
Now, I am a proponent for
"cleaning the slate".
You never know...
I hate to enter the controversy fray, but...
As far as "seeing god" goes,
I read about the original founder of the Calvary Chapel (born again megachurch). He was a "Jesus freak" involved in tha Laguna Beach scene BITD. After an LSD experience reinforced his faith, he began performing baptisms in the ocean at Corona Del Mar and was known for having a powerful presence that really attracted other freaks. He later came out as a homosexual, and much later died of AIDS.
This dude has totally been written out of the history of Calvary Chapel. Sad and lame, but hen again would the CC be as powerful if all he followers knew that history?
Instead of "seeing god",
I think "religious experience" sums it up better. Something so transformational and ineffable...
101 Grateful Dead shows later...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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The 'seeing God' reference was just a play on words. I hate having to spell sh#t out for y'all....
Yeah, I've only 'tripped' about 10-12 times. I think it's the kind of substance to be used sparingly. Once a year, as me and my buddy used to do. It should also only be done with people you know well, or are very comfortable with. I almost always dosed with the same guy. We would have annual (sometimes bi-annual) fishing trips where the goal was tripping one night.
We had both come to conclusions that dropping was most pleasant in an isolated surrounding where 'the law' wasn't around and where you had almost non-existent contact with others.
So one of my most memorable trips, after we had the sh#t dialed in, was to take my buddy's boat out to Don Pedro Reservoir. We launched the boat, parked his rig, and dropped on our way out to an obscure cove of the lake.
When we found a sweet spot we baited up the poles, tossed 'em out, and it kicked it. He had the seats that extend out so you can lay down horizontally comfortably. So we just lay there staring up, watching the star-filled sky.
Occasionally I'd try to watch my line on my pole for activity, but eveytime I looked at it, it was a spider-web of lines (traces).
We'd arrived at about midnight. We stayed up tripping hard on the Berkeley sh#t we scored all night.
What was fascinating, was I could actually see the motion of the galaxy around us. I could watch constellation move over time. I could see the movement of our orbit. It was fascinating. It seemed like 2 hours but was more like 6. And watching dawn come was weird too.
We caught no fish that day. But that was probably the best trip I'd ever had. Just too hard to explain acid-trips in words....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 18, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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One constant in the various Hindu and Buddhist retreats I have gone to over the years among people who grew up in the '60's and 70's, is that the people there got interested in the spiritual life as a result of taking psychedelics.
Another constant over the years, is that the leaders of these organizations require their serious followers to give up psychedelics, channeling, and hypnotism when they are initiated to the higher levels so that they will be able to distinguish between their own minds and the effects of those outside themselves.
Richard Alpert, Timothy Leary's collaborator at Harvard, later known as Ram Das, describes his guru in India telling him that the mind can control even powerful drugs like LSD (after Richard badgered him to take the drug to see how wonderful it was and if it related to what the guru was describing meditation could produce).The guru took a huge hit of pure stuff and according to Richard, showed no signs of being affected at all.
This seems to back up what has been said earlier, that either psychedelics taken properly or meditation, can help a person clear out their unconscious. It may also indicate that in the process of living improperly (accumulating bad karma, having bad karma done to us), we impede the flow of our own natural brain chemistry and that the drugs and meditation flush it out and leave us at best, in our own natural God/evolution intended state. The Tibetan system of meditation is called Vajrayana, meaning it is a hard and brilliant (vajra means lightning bolt) but also a dangerous path requiring a spiritual director who has been through it before.
Then there is the Zen saying, "When I began to meditate, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. After I had meditated awhile, nothing was as it seemed. After I had meditated a long time, mountains were again mountains, and rivers rivers".
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Mar 18, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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Two well known climbers back in the 60s did two El Cap routes in one week. After the second climb, on the summit, they each took 500 ug (a lot) and hardly felt it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 18, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Two well known climbers back in the 60s did two El Cap routes in one week. After the second climb, on the summit, they each took 500 ug (a lot) and hardly felt it.
This would seem to verify the body-mind connection spoken of in meditation circles and also validate from the evolutionary point of view, that most of modern man's ills come from not living the life our evolution intended, with lots of exercise and mental challenge.
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drunkenmaster
Social climber
santa rosa
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Mar 18, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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my friend marcos (the first person i ever climbed with) and i back in high school (before we ever climbed) had heard that taking 1 hit of acid on 30 different occasions (or something like that, its been awhile) would make you certifiably insane - - so we tried it! the first 30 days (or so) of high school were spent TriPpiN!! so am i insane? or was i already to even try!? i do think it and shrooms open your mind and body and heart to strong emotions and ideas and that is priceless. but like anything too much or the wrong dose at the wrong time could take you in the wrong direction and give you a bad trip - bad trip = no fun. weed is good for me now. and of course booze but look out for that, its a cheap dirty high.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 18, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
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What strikes me about the spider web photos Eric posted is that the normal drug free spider, the one on hash, and the one on LSD all produced similar webs compared to the spiders on mescaline and caffeine. The differences between the three similar ones are perhaps, a metaphor for both drugs and life.
The normal spider spun an intricate web with numerous cross hatches - a very bourgoise and ordered thread, with everything linked and bound to everything else.
The thread on hash was very similar, only not as tightly bound to all its elements, and the job was not as complete.
The web spun by the spider on LSD went straight to the center, with no clinging or attachments along the way.
All three of these webs had a dense center and looked, especially the LSD web, like a kind of mandala, whereas the mescaline and especially the caffeine influenced thread, were spun at random with no center.The caffeine induced web in particular seemed to reflect modern life - energetic, distracted, randomly helter skelter, and no unifying center at all.
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kingpin
climber
methdeathsto ca
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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I took some acid with some friends years ago, not the first time. We hung out for a while and the effects seemed very mild. I chocked it up to our doses being weak and went home (parents house) after enjoying the very mild trip with my friends. After getting out of my truck, driving on acid is dumb I know, I noticed something laying in the road. Upon closer inspection I determined it was a severed human thumb. Being unable to resist the urge to touch it I reached out. Just before I made contact, it jumped away. After nearly collapsing, I looked again only to discover that it was actually a toad!
Acid is a hell of a drug.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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Very insightful Jan.
And squares with experience.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Spider webs as mandalas and spider webs as psychological profiles - do I detect a unified field theory?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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Well,
You may detect anthropomorphism.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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drljefe- "I read the origional founder..."
I "hate entering the fray" as a matter of fact, as of late I disdain it, but when false allegations etc are constantly springing up on this forum I try and correct them.
Chuck Smith started Calvary Chapel(1965)and is still alive and well. A married couple joined Calvary Chapel early on(after it had been in existence for several years)by the name of Lonnie Frisbee and I don't recall his wife's name. He was simply another member of the church that grew into what it is today.
He was a closet homosexual, and eventually died of aids around 1990. He left the church in the late seventies/early eighties.
There is no big cover-up/scandal, never was. And once again he was not an origional founder! GET YOUR STORY STRAIGHT! He was simply one of the early members of the church. He used acid once before he became a Christian, so what.
Chuck Smith still is the head pastor of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. There are Calvary Chapel churches all over the world know.
Baptisms in the rivers and oceans have been going on for thousands of years, Jesus was baptised in the Jordan River.
Do a little research next time...eh. Althogh it is pretty typical of the world/media, no big surprise.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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I'm sure those web studies were carefully designed and controlled, not a result of some anti-drug agenda. Furthermore, it is impossible to correlate these types of animal studies with potential effects on humans. We can never have any idea what any drug does to the animal mind, especially when comparing insects to mammals.
Too much propaganda, not enough controlled science in this area.
Humans will always find some way to change their perception. It's just the curious nature of the beast. Read "Storming Heaven" by Jay Stevens for a brilliant synopsis of the history of psychedelics.
Also, LSD hasn't been available outside of research labs since The Bear got shut down. It is a very difficult synthesis and too many places to create mistakes that lead to what most people have been taking since the early 70s. It's not that it's laced with speed or strychnine or anything else, it's just poorly made. Go natural if you want the real thing.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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Go natural if you want the real thing.
Heavenly Blue?
or
Pearly Gates?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Mar 18, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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bluering- "The 'seeing God' reference was just a play on words. I hate to have to spell sh#t out for y'all."
And then you wonder why people call/single you out as a this and that. I guess they are having dificulty taking you seriously.
I think you just gave another lame excuse for your lack of credibility.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Mar 19, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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eric beck- "two climbers took..."
I was just thinking about the rumor in regards to Jim M. and that he had taken a hit of acid, or perhaps mescaline before his tragic end. Back in the 70's(early)this was the rumor circulating C4 back then.
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