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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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eeyonkee,
Seems to me you mentioned in a distant post that you had a Catholic upbringing. So you have totally rejected your upbringing and faith? Perhaps you never had any. I do not know. You do recall we have met. We have talked.
I know you are a professional geologist.
You know that the Catholic church now also teaches evolution in Catholic school, yes? As a Scientist would you have a problem with Theistic Evolution?
The Catholic Church knows Lucifer is real. There are conspiracies. Secret powerful organizations do indeed exist. Are you denying this? The Pope has even come out and said it is ok to believe that UFOs/ETs exist. What say you?
So what would you say to the brilliant scientists Galileo and Newton for having faith and also knowing that the fallen angel by the name of Lucifer was indeed real, according to their faith? Would you have the same reaction?
There are many things Newton believed that he would not ever share with his students. Many in fact. He led a very private personal life. Can we not have private thoughts? Can we not have faith? Can a scientist, a science teacher, a reseacher not have faith? Can a teacher who clearly knows the difference and maintains the seperation of Church and State not have personal faith? Or to be a teacher is it now required one must be an atheist?
ST is not the classroom or the work environment. Don't we all come to ST to talk about things we noramlly can't, and to sort of let our hair down so to speak? And yes even, heaven forbid, debate?
I would really like to know what you think.
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 10, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Just think if it happened on 4/20...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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Somehow I think there would be a lot of ritual burning of a certain substance in memmorial or perhaps to forget? But on 4/20 they already do don't they -- what are they celebrating? lol.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Mar 11, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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Klimmer, I may have been a little heavy-handed - sorry. I don't mean to stifle debate.
First of all, yes - I have completely rejected my faith. It started probably when I was 12 or so (I went to Catholic school from the 3rd through the 7th grades). I think Lucifer is about as real as the Easter Bunny.
So what would you say to the brilliant scientists Galileo and Newton for having faith and also knowing that the fallen angel by the name of Lucifer was indeed real, according to their faith? Would you have the same reaction?
Pretty much everyone believed or professed to believe in the Catholic church at this time. It was actually quite dangerous to be a non-believer. It would be like being born and growing up in a Muslim country today - 98% of the people are Muslims. Are there smart Muslim scientists? Of course there are. Are they delusional in their beliefs? of course they are.
Can a teacher who clearly knows the difference and maintains the seperation of Church and State not have personal faith? Or to be a teacher is it now required one must be an atheist?
If this is clearly adhered to, I guess I don't have a problem. I just don't think that it likely is adhered to. Frankly, I would not want to see an evangelical Christian or a Morman in the position of US president for these reasons. I think when you believe in crazy stuff like the "Rapture" or conspiracies hatched by Lucifer it would be hard to keep these beliefs separate from the rest of your life.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 11, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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Paragraphs 2-6: Perfect.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Mar 11, 2010 - 10:39am PT
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"Just think if it happened on 4/20..."
You mean Hitler's birthday? I think that's already been done by some right-wingnuts.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Mar 11, 2010 - 11:00am PT
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I once worked with a guy who was a complete rapture-holic.
He told me where he hid his house key and said that if he ever "just disappeared some day," I should go there and retrieve his Bible, for some unclear reason.
I asked if it was okay to take all his guns too.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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eeyonkee,
I appreciate your honest answers. I would like to respond if I may.
Klimmer, I may have been a little heavy-handed - sorry. I don't mean to stifle debate.
First of all, yes - I have completely rejected my faith. It started probably when I was 12 or so (I went to Catholic school from the 3rd through the 7th grades). I think Lucifer is about as real as the Easter Bunny.
I appreciate your apology and honesty. I wish on ST we could stop the personal attacks and the name calling. We all will never agree on everything. That is a given. I think it is ok to agree to disagree and come out shaking hands, well, at least in a cyber-world virtual kinda way I suppose.
Let's agree to disagree about faith and the existance of Lucifer. My faith and my Holy Book have much to say about him and his influence on the evil deeds of man-kind. They are one and the same.
So what would you say to the brilliant scientists Galileo and Newton for having faith and also knowing that the fallen angel by the name of Lucifer was indeed real, according to their faith? Would you have the same reaction?
Pretty much everyone believed or professed to believe in the Catholic church at this time. It was actually quite dangerous to be a non-believer. It would be like being born and growing up in a Muslim country today - 98% of the people are Muslims. Are there smart Muslim scientists? Of course there are. Are they delusional in their beliefs? of course they are.
To some degree I agree with you, especially with Galileo. However, he did have personal faith, and yet he was brave enough to buck the Church, and he called them out on wrong teachings regarding the natural world. Even under house arrest, he still did science. He said what he had to in trial to appease them, but it didn't change his mind at all. He did brilliant science afterwards as well. his notes were smuggled out by his daughter when she came to visit him.
Newton was Church of England, Anglican. Newton had strong personal faith as the many letters and his writings lay out the evidence clearly. He did amazing brilliant science. In his personal faith he did not believe that Jesus was equal to GOD. He did not believe the Trinity as taught. He believed that Jesus was the Son of GOD, but not his equal. He kept this personal belief to himself, because it would have been against the teachings of the COE. However, he wrote about it extensively in personal papers. He was also very much into Bible Code. He believed that GOD had a secret code throughout his word that unlocked the Secrets of the Universe and he searched his whole life and didn't figure it out. Today that is a whole different matter. I've talked about that here on ST extensively. It is an amazing modern miracle that he have uncovered. There is no explaining it in my opinion but to say it is very clear evidence of GOD and the truth of his word.
You would probably disagree. So we again agree to disagree.
Newton was also into trying to figure out the date of end of the World according to the Bible. The good Lord Jesus said, we wouldn't know the day or the hour. He didn't say we wouldn't know the year. Through Newton's studies and work he has calculated the year to be 2060 AD. Well, GOD only knows.
I would say that is very clear evidence that Newton was not persecuted and forced to believe what everyone else believed in his day. He had choice. And he clearly didn't agree with many around him, and had contraversial beliefs contrary to the COE. But he still had deep personal faith. He didn't believe because everyone else believed and was doing it. He made up his own mind about things.
Can a teacher who clearly knows the difference and maintains the seperation of Church and State not have personal faith? Or to be a teacher is it now required one must be an atheist?
If this is clearly adhered to, I guess I don't have a problem. I just don't think that it likely is adhered to. Frankly, I would not want to see an evangelical Christian or a Morman in the position of US president for these reasons. I think when you believe in crazy stuff like the "Rapture" or conspiracies hatched by Lucifer it would be hard to keep these beliefs separate from the rest of your life.
The sepration of Church and State has to be adhered to, or a teacher will not have a job. This is very clear. Seperation of Church and State cuts both ways.
A science teacher teaches science, the scientific method. Science is about Cosmic Order and answers How? and What? questions.
Religion, faith, philosophy, logic is about Cosmic Purpose and can answer Why? questions. Science can not answer these types of questions.
Both are valid questions but science can only answer questions regarding scientific hypotheses. In other words they must be testable. There must be physical empirical evidence to work with. Science is a powerful tool. But it can not answer all questions.
In science we can only do science, period.
The other valid questions can be attempted down the hall in another classroom that teaches: history, philosphy, logic, and the differences between world-wide Religions and faiths. But all must be respected, given equal time with no religion given preference over another.
Also, the seperation of Church and State protects a student against ridicule by a teacher who may want to belittle a student's faith or religion. This is a good thing also for obvious reasons.
Like I said, the seperation of Church and State cuts both ways, and this is a very good thing. It allows for learning and checking out all the facts without fear or reprisal. It also teaches respect for others.
It is a teachers job to present all the facts and no personal agendas. Present it all fairly.
In science we can only teach science and the scientific method.
Personally, in my own life I maybe a Theistic Evolutionist, but in Earth Science classroom I only mention the physical facts of Evolution. By definition that is all I can do. That is what science does. It is a tool that measures the physical, not the spiritual. And I do so very very well. If I didn't I would be in another job.
If I bumped into a former student on the street in public and not in the science classroom, years from now, and they asked me "What do you really think?" . . .
I would safely tell them what I thought. They asked me. I'm in public, I'm not in the role of a public employee as their teacher, I'm not in school, nor am I their teacher any longer. I have my 1st Admendment Rights in addition. I would explain to them Theistic Evolution. GOD did it and he did it by Evolution. Can I prove it? No. It is by faith. However, I do believe the evidence for GOD's existenece is rapidly gaining ground in our time and I find that very exciting. We are finding amazing stuff that can not be explained away. I would also direct them to the book, if they wanted to know more, The Science of God, by the distinguished physicist and biblical scholar Gerald Schroeder.
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Lissiehoya
climber
Saint Louis, MO
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Mar 12, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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Graham,
you have to be a christian to be a satanist.
Isn't that a contradiction?
AND
Klimmer,
The more people he destroys the more he hurts GOD.
That doesn't sound like very good theology to me. The devil can hurt God... who is... omnipotent?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2010 - 02:12am PT
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LH,
When I refer to "hurt" perhaps I should have said, sadden, or make unhappy. I'm not refering to physical hurt. Obviously, Lucifer has no physical power over GOD.
The good book does relate that GOD feels and has emotion. He loves, he has anger, and yes he feels saddness over what is happening to Mankind. He repented for making Man since we turned our back on him. I suppose he won't do it again after this age of man has come to its ultimate end.
He loves us as a father loves his child. Any child lost hurts GOD emotionally. Like I said, there is plenty of scripture in the good book relating to this.
Edit:
Jesus wept. Jesus is Emmanuel, GOD with us. GOD has and feels very real emotion.
We were made in his image. We feel. We have emotion. When we lose a loved one, family member, friend, or even sometimes hear a tragic story of a total stranger we weep also.
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