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mikael
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Oct 25, 2005 - 09:44pm PT
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Either I, my partner and the other team on the route all missed 'em, or the bolts promised as an anchor at the bottom of the first 5.7 crack on Super Slide are also gone. This was Sunday.
Not a big deal, big ledge and a good, but thin, crack to build my own anchor. It's just that searching for a non existant anchor wasn't a fun start to my first 5.8 lead.
-mikael
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 10:08pm PT
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When we replaced bolts on Super Slide in '99 there were no bolts there (or we missed seeing them), first bolts were on top of the third pitch.
Greg
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Superhomo
Social climber
SF - Where else?
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Oct 25, 2005 - 11:11pm PT
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I give this person a personal "SuperHomo" signed plaque complete is dried jizz and the like.
I mean WTF! Really who cares??? I often see bolts and ponder why this is next to a crack. Usually this is at Red Rocks where trad climbing can be more like sprad climbing. A mixture of trad and sport. Just in case you get lost following the crack, clip the shiney things. I'd rather climb than waste time chopping.
I say - chopping is more ugly than shiney hangers....
Cheers
SuperHomo
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Caddy
climber
DC
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Oct 26, 2005 - 07:15pm PT
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Guy Graening and I climbed Serenity on Monday. I led the first pitch expecting a bolt and was taken by surprise that it was not there. I was able to place a yellow alien with only two cam lobes making solid contact. I was faceing a ground fall onto blocks if I fell. Also it looked as if someone chopped 3 fixed pins higher on the route. I'd like to talk to the person who removed the bolt so I can thank him with my fist.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 07:43pm PT
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The bolt in question is NOT original.
Tom Higgins just replied to me and said there was definitely no bolt there when he did the first free ascent.
There are a good number of bolts that were not original all over the Valley (and many other places), and while some are justified (eg. to prevent a tree from being wrecked or a crack at a heavily used anchor from being destroyed by decades of replacement pitons), I think the bar should be set pretty high for added bolts, even if the bolts have now been there for 30 years.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 08:03pm PT
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Greg
What a nightmare rock climbing has become .........
Or should I say what a nightmare we've become?
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sleepydawg
Trad climber
Layton, Utah
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Oct 26, 2005 - 08:16pm PT
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So bolts were not there, but nailing pins were. Hmmm. My son has wanted to lead the crack since I told him about my ascent before his birth. Do you guys mind if I nail the first pitch, avoiding any bolts, so he can lead it safely? A generation ago the decision was made to place a bolt so we would not have to use pins (which I bet Higgins used in the FFA). This has not been a R or X route until now, just a fun crack. Why don't we keep it that way.
In all seriousness guys, will chopping the bolt lead to more people placing pins to protect the lower part, or can you really place good pro? It seemed like a dished out seam when I did it a while back.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 26, 2005 - 08:26pm PT
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You didn't find the first bolt 30 feet up R? It felt like a stretch that you ought to lead when you were ready to do so w/o falling before the bolt got chopped...My definition of R anyway. Doesn't seem like it will be any different now. The only way to guaruntee your son's safety is to make him top rope the pitch.
I'm ambivalent about that bolt. I'd happily clip it if it was there. I don't think it's going to impact anyone that much not being there. I don't remember any pins on the route? Where were they?
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sleepydawg
Trad climber
Layton, Utah
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Oct 26, 2005 - 08:42pm PT
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It used to be an aid crack. The whole thing was nailed and then the pins were removed. Thats why you have the holes in the rock. Thats why you can free climb it...but the free climb is not because the rock has somehow been returned to its pristine condition. So let me summarise this arguement.
The bolt was placed there to help climbers not use pins.
We chopped the bolt because we want the climb to return to its orginal condition.
But the orginal condition was ugly pin scars that were placed there by climbers using pins.
And now we can use pins again, because they were used by the FA party.
But we want to limit the use of pins, so we put in a bolt again,
Or provide free aliens to any aliens of the valley.
Did I get this right?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 26, 2005 - 08:45pm PT
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No...Mostly it gets climb it with our hands and feet now (not pins as was the case when it was an aid crack)...or with hands, feet, and rope tension from above. I'll stick by my original assertion that if you end up needing that bolt, you're too sketch to be very safe climbing that pitch in the first place. Pin it out more if you want. That's the glory that your son is going to see on that first pitch anyway.
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sleepydawg
Trad climber
Layton, Utah
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Oct 26, 2005 - 08:50pm PT
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Melissa,
I wasn't making fun of you, just this arguement seems a bit circular to me. I won't be placing pins in anything except big walls, and some practice cracks here in Utah.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 26, 2005 - 09:16pm PT
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"the bolt attracts 'the wrong climbers.' "
I guess I knows what that means, but let me see if I get
it right. People who can climb .10+ but don't want to
lead 5.9 R.
The points been made, the route is 5.9 R with or without
the bolt. Now it's just more evident (and a bit more R).
Let's start a pool--does the bolt:
1) not get replaced
2) get replaced before a ledge-out
3) get replaced after the first ledge-out
4) get replaced after more than one ledge-out
I don't think the odds are very good for #1.
:- k
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Old&InTheWay
Trad climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 12:26am PT
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I climbed Serenity in 91 and got a good tricam somewhere before the bolt. Again in 2002 following that pitch I noticed several placements that looked good enough for an alien or alien hybrid. These days climbers have the gear technology to continue the evolution of clean climbing, the kind Doug Robinson wrote about. I think we should continue that tradition. If the natural gear is good enough, the bolt is not necessary and should not be replaced regardless of how much of a trade route Serenity has become. Aliens are no longer special gear and apparently the route is getting done without the bolt. Maybe a group of locals needs to go up there, determine how good that natural gear really is so you can decide what to do. That'd be more reasonable than trying to make the decision on this forum.
-Bruce
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Dog
climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 10:34am PT
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As it has been said,
Yes, the bolt has been chopped. It also has been said that a good piece can be put in below the bolt.What, 3 or 4 feet below. Offset, Alien or whatever. I mean, without any disrespect to those of lesser ability, relax, this is low angle, huge pin scar pockets that we are talking about here. Not an R or X rating scarefest!
I never understood the reason for the bolt in the first place. Has it been said why and when it was placed in the first place?
This thread reminds me of the storm that was created when the bolt was chopped on the Nutcracker. Belay before the mantle.
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KarlP
Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
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Oct 27, 2005 - 10:58am PT
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You disappoint me dingus.
Where do I send my cheques to be allowed to climb in YOUR little playground?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Oct 27, 2005 - 11:20am PT
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"free aliens"
i like that, i'm tired of this elitest gear stuff too. could somebody plz bolt Super crack. i don't think it's fair that i have to have 7 #3 camalots to lead it, it's just too durn'd expenseive
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