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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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I see your point Jesse, but I still think that it is a word game. If you have a group of ten who want to hike a popular trail, then to get a trail permit, you will need a reservation. The permit might be free, but to get one you will need a reservation and you have to pay money for the reservation. It is just a word game to say the permit is free if you need a reservation to get one. And yes, I understand that for most people the money is no big deal. That doesnt mean it sets well with me. I hope you wont think that I am bagging on you. I just feel frustrated with user fees and some of the systems we have created. I don't like the direction that we have gone with user fees. I don't know what to do about it, but that is another matter. I am grateful to have grown up without very many user fees.
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Mojomonkey
climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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We have already been sued twice in the past ten years for not addressing user capacity issues in regards to the Merced Wild and Scenic River. These are your fellow Americans asking us through litigation to reduce the amount of use to the Parks.
It sounds like you are using the fact of two lawsuits in a decade as motivation/justification for the park to set policy. That seems flimsy. Two in 10 years is nothing, given that
We get 4 million visitors here a year
And I'm guessing the park successfully defended themselves in these suits?
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
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Tom,
Still living on the Eastside? Awesome description of the Half Dome hiking experience. We get a more diverse crowd on that trail than anywhere else in the park by far. The family history is also so important. Another reason for the parks reluctance to do this.
Thanks for the comment,
Jesse
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Gene
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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Jesse,
Please clarify this for me. When I hike the JM Trail south to north I can't make a side trip to HD without a permit if it happens to be a Fri, sat, or Sun when I'm in the area?
Thanks,
g
I just got an email from Ken Yager to put my helmet on on the Supertopo forum.
Make sure you make a gear review post.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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What time will the rangers get there in the morning to start enforcing? :0)
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Yep I'm on the Eastside. I just wrote up a story on the permits for Half Dome.
I don't expect many people to share my point of view on the half dome trail. It took me a lot of watching and talking to people to come up with that view. It was also not a view I expected to have. The whole thing is just kind of cool.
It won't go away with these permits.
The huge crowd will be at the base of Vernal, the less huge crowd will be at the top playing in the waterslide and walking across the lip of the waterfall.
The crowd will still be large on top of Nevada Falls, and will still be big on Half Dome, same as always. Less people the higher you go.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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This whole thing is a sick joke.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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"Many National Parks make you pay a fee for Wilderness Permits to recover the costs of managing Wilderness Areas in general. For the Half Dome Day use permits we are only covering the costs of the permit service. Nothing else."
Funny, I thought that was why I paid about $20K in taxes to the federal gubermint last year. If the fee for a permit to cover the cost of servicing the permit program because there isn't enough money in the budget to do it otherwise, a smart person would say - don't fricking instigate the program!
Part 2 of this rant - Don't outsource our parks! I deal with enough contracting, sub contracting, and sub-sub contracting. I know the games. It's costing us a fortune in our tax dollars.
"First of all, I (thankfully) am just a messenger announcing this 2 year interim measure."
Awesome... So it gets worse?
"These are your fellow Americans asking us through litigation to reduce the amount of use to the Parks."
Yeah, ones that probably haven't been there lately. Like the ones that like to protect frogs in their free time.
Thanks for keeping us informed, Jesse. I hope our collective dissatisfaction is passed on to descision makers.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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Thanks, Jesse for this post .. bound to crank up some response..
I wonder how many permits are going to go unused. You get it in advance. You get sick, or you overwork yourself the day before and decide not to hike it. Kind of like the problems we have with empty campsites. Many people don't bother canceling because it is a bigger chore to cancel then the refund is worth.
it's reservation dot guv that's such a pain.. long waits on the phone, interminable future permitting details, no way to pick up canceled reservations..no info re the permit or campsite or terrain itself.. it's a nightmare of outsourced services.. the airlines will let me check myself in at the kiosk mere minutes before my departure.
I say go euro with self serve kiosks and a simple harness with a carabiner on a sling to clip in to the cable like every other via ferrate, all right there at the glove pile.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>>>>>>>>>>>ATTENTION NPS<<<<<<<<<<<
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The speed at which this thread is approaching triple digits should tell you something: this is an access issue that matters to a lot of the visitors you serve. Cutting back from an average of 840 visits per day to only 400 is a huge move. It means that the majority of those who would have enjoyed the wilderness experience won't. To take away all first come, first serve permits gives the impression that the loss of freedom that comes with restrictions on access to the wilderness is not on your radar screen.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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>I say go euro with self serve kiosks and a simple harness with a carabiner on a sling to clip in to the cable like every other via ferrate, all right there at the glove pile.
They've got that one covered. Notice that the permit is needed to climb the subdome needed to reach the base of the cables.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
(just incrementally more in your face)
trouble is,.. gotta do sumptin!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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Hopefully my reverse descent of the cables during the FaceLift will still be OK. It will be followed by a reverse ascent.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
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Hey Jesse,
Any idea how this might affect nighttime ascents? I'm assuming nobody will be checking permits in the evening, but would one get in trouble if, for some reason, there were a ranger around?
(I would hope not, since the Dome is presumably uncrowded at night)
-Val
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
You wanted to!
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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Remember, folks....Jesse is our Liason, our link to the powers that be.
Respect HIM.....He's a good man. But, Give "the System" Hell.
I trend towards the outlaw approach. But, then, when I go to 1/2 Dome, I'll climb the effer. Still, this will be huge friction.
Wait & see.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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NPS has a conflicting management mandate - http://www.nature.nps.gov/Winks
"to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein [within the national parks] and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations"
Personally, I understand the quotas, they suck but then again too many people in the woods annoy me just I probably annoy them. It is all this damned breeding that is going on.
The service fees for permits are just like the service/handling fees for a concert ticket. I hated them. The concessionaire is certainly making some money on that gig. $1800 a weekend * 16 weeks is 28k per year. I am sure there are some dirt bag climbers who be willing to manage the tickets three days a week over the summer on a first come first serve for $600 a day.
I guess my only bitch is that there should be a daily walk up. 200 of the permits should be reservation, 100 wilderness with other 100 being first come first serve.
Also the permits should be available online right up to the day before.
But do I care - I never walk up the cables.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
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Here is the solution. To be maintained and operated by Delaware North.
$15 bucks round trip
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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$15 round trip? No way. It will cost them at least $50 million to implement, then guess who gets to flip the bill...
Yosemite should be the poster child for HOW NOT to run a national park.
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sarabina
Social climber
CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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"Specifically, there was both a visitor fatality and a visitor who sustained serious injuries on the cables during two consecutive crowded weekends last summer."
Let's be honest. The incidents last year were not about too many people up there, it was about weather. Consecutive days of afternoon thunderstorms. Hikers leaving too late in the morning and not paying attention to the weather forecasts. Permits are not going to change people being unprepared and making bad decisions.
Permit Required?
yep.
B.S.
For Sure.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
You wanted to!
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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Hard to protect against lightning, huh?
Especially THERE.
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