Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:59am PT
|
As for this French action, it is to abuse muslims, particularly muslim women.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:11am PT
|
And here I thought bluering and other right-wingers hated France... You know, the whole freedom fries silliness. Forgetting that the US only won its independence through major French support, the Statute of Liberty, and a few other odds and ends. Of course, France is a centralized unitary state, with a very different history and culture.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:14am PT
|
Imagine though, what will happen when some nutjob sect gets a woman in her veil to blow herself up and kill innocents here in the US or Britain, or anywhere else.
Then, the chaos that will reign in airports or any public place when a woman in a veil is allowed.
CHAOS! Not caused by Americans, but by terrorists exploiting our willingness to be so PC, that people will die.
This makes no sense. It isn't the veil that allows them to carry bombs. It is the loose clothing. Loose clothing comes in many forms including trench coats. Do they wear trench coats? Not now, but they would if they needed to. All you have to do is look at the security checkpoints in Israel. The people blowing themselves up wear whatever is needed, including western clothing, which has already been done. So this ban will not stop anything. A person so messed up that they would blow themselves up wont care if they have to wear a down jacket or a trench coat or whatever to accomplish their mission.
Muslim women are oppressed. That is a sad fact.
I think that there are better ways to help them overcome the oppression. Such as education.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 03:35am PT
|
I hear next on the list is to ban that traditional Hawaiian dress, the Muumuu, as it is worn by those warlike people, the Americans........
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
|
Kudos to PorkChop for standing up for his conservative values even for a group he might not align with.
Dudes ... isn't American values about freedom and tolerance, even of religious groups we don't agree with (which for many of us is EVERY OTHER religious group)
Sure, outlaw Forcing people to do something but let people wear what they want.
Once it's OK to outlaw clothes, almost anything can be mandated. What a slippery slope!
Face is, this is a just a bunch of anti-muslim bigotry. If this were about making Amish Christians take their hats off, you'd be mad.
Or maybe not. Maybe it's ok to take anybody's freedom away that's not very much like you.
I think back when the Beatles arrived in America, there were plenty of people who would have loved to ban long hair on men. How would you have responded Bluering? (longhair)
Peace
Karl
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
|
This is stupid law. I am 100% against it. You think you can control people by telling them what to wear? LOL. Idiocracy. the dumbest comment yet "they use it to conceal suicide bombers". Oh, so they couldn't use anything else to conceal that sort of thing? Why don't we just ban all clothes except government issued jumpsuits? Then we can have the complete triumph of the prison industrial system.
|
|
Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
|
Brilliant.
Next the Euros will ban yamakas and long, curly jewish locks on rabbis and those tall, silly looking hats on catholic priests and nuns.
Lol@ "well done."
I am dumbfounded.
|
|
Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
|
I wonder if Sikh Hindus can no longer wear their turbans.
Everyone hates France but when it comes to banning the rights of women who choose to wear a veil, they are awesome.
The french are smucks.
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
|
Once they ban this, what will they fear so greatly next that they need to ban? Reminds me of Nazis making Jews wear the Star of David. First blame them, then disidentify them, then forcefully identify them... then?
|
|
TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
|
binks, wouldn't wearing a veil be more identifiable than not wearing one?
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
|
My point is that it's a progression. First they limit their right to express themselves as the wish in the community thru their choice of clothing. The next step might be forcibly identifying them, who knows? Or another fear based ordinance. I really think this is what fearful people do, not what people who believe in freedom would do.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
|
Like to see them try and enforce this - like some copper is gonna rip the purdah off some woman's face.
This all issues from Frances terror or losing what is essentially "French." The notion being that if you're going to live in France, you must become "French" lest the nation and its culture will perish. They are very picky about language, and instead of adopting English words for certain things (especially technology) they assign French nakes simply so they can have things their own way - French.
It's probably not sustainable, and certainly not enforceable.
JL
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
|
Effing hypocrites. What happened to
Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
|
I think we should ban crosses. Christians have killed millions of people in this country, and more terrorist acts have been associated with crosses here than any other religious symbol.
If we got rid of the crosses, an obvious sign of Christian oppression, we would solve the problem.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
|
A few things seem to be going on. If the law is to prevent the wearing of a headscarf, that seems to be motivated by bigotry.
But if the law is intended to prevent full face veils (which I gather from title thread), that seems more reasonable as a public safety measure.
Liquor and convenience stores generally prohibit wearing masks or other disguises for obvious reasons--this law is just forbidding disguises more generally, again for obvious reasons.
I don't see any fundamental right to go around in public wearing a disguise, maybe I'm missing something . . .
|
|
zeta
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
|
I wonder if Sikh Hindus can no longer wear their turbans.
yes, it's obvious from the number of times in this forum that people have confused Hindus and Sikhs that some education is needed...
Sikhism and Hinduism are two different religions!
Hindus don't wear turbans--some Hindu holy men (sadhus) do wear head coverings, but they're not turbans
Sikhs and Hindus would be seriously offended to be confused with each other, especially considering the riots/violence that has broken out between the two groups, *especially* after Hindu Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was assassinated by her two Sikh bodyguards in 1984, which led to major anti-Sikh violence...many Sikh men were so scared of being killed by mobs that they took off their turbans and cut their hair (a seriously drastic step that goes against precepts of Sikhism)
intolerance, ignorance, and fear of 'the other' sadly continues, especially on this forum
|
|
Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
|
I see you people mixing apples and oranges arguing over banning religious clothing. There are logical reasons for banning veils that completely cover a woman's face.
1. Identification, as in a drivers license.
2. Security issues, i.e., banking, stores, ect.
Up in Mammoth Lakes there's a sign posted on the Bank of America door that says do not wear ski knit/hats inside !!!!
SO to me its a big, "DUH" on the whole issue....!!!!
On a side note, if you really want to talk oppressive are the viels that cover the entire head and have the screen over the eyes, I believe, its the ones I've seen over in Afganistan, ala Taliban.
and yeah, I agree with Bluey
|
|
Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
|
Blue Ring sounds a lot like an untravelled, uneducated, regressive bigot. I really don't like the full-body covering either; in fact, I am very, very glad to be here in North America, and not in any Muslim country. I'm even more glad my daughter is here and not in so many of the Muslim countries I've been to. But Blue Ding and others would ruin exactly what makes western nations as good as they are: Tolerance for weird stuff, be it yours or others. Nothing pisses me off more than people would sacrifice liberty for security (look the quote up).
"Don't you guys realize France and Britain have a problem right now that they're just discovering they let fester too long."
People don't fester in general, aside from maybe in bivouacs. Using the sort of language above is exactly the same sort of stuff said by so many pro-slavery advocates back in the day. Even if one were to think being Muslim is a problem attacking the clothing is only going to lead to more problems. Education will win eventually, TV will win, communication will win, but attacking the clothes, beliefs, or looks won't. That's one reason a whole lot of people came over to North America in the first place (even some Christians, hmmm?), and now why Muslims are still coming here.
"So what should France do, capitulate to Islamic tradition and laws in a French/Christian state?"
French and Christian are not the same thing. I know many Frenchies who are definitely not Christian. Nor is the state "Christian" as you note below. But Frenchies should say, "Our country is strong enough to handle some weird traditions. Eventually we will assimilate you into our superior French way and you will like Brie, but until that time feel free to wear a dress pulled over your head.Oui."
"French muslims weren't forced to go to France. If they can't handle a secular state based in Christian belief, shouldn't they go elsewhere?"
This sort of thinking is exactly why the USA is going to hell. If Clue Ring can't handle a system that tolerates a wide range of political and religious beliefs shouldn't he go elsewhere? The Muslims can handle that sort of state, they are, it's the bigots in the country that can't handle the Muslims. Sad.
True freedom, true civil liberty, is being willing to tolerate that which you find despicable in others so that you may in turn do things others find "wrong." The really great thing about western democracies is that we have civil rights here compared to a lot of other systems in the world.
If my world view were allowed to run rampart I'd rip all the crosses off churches because they're a symbol of ignorance, pedophiles, repression, terror and general dark ages thinking. Unfortunately, I can't do that 'cause those damn cross-hangers have rights. What a shame. Full sarcasm for the last paragraph, but this is the sort of attitude Ring Ding has.
And I hate Burkas, but they are a symptom. Attacking the symptoms never works, you gotta change the cause.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
|
And I hate Burkas, but they are a symptom. Attacking the symptoms never works, you gotta change the cause.
Yep...
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
|
I so look forward to our banning the use of masks here in the US as well. I've always hated wearing those masks in the surgical suite, and we can stop having to give all those people masks who show up in offices and ERs with coughs, to prevent giving it to everyone. The dentists will save a fortune on the masks that they won't have to wear.
Oh, damn. This will only apply to women. Well, heck, they can afford the higher rates of illness!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!