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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
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God help us (maybe he has), me and Franky agree on something....
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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I've never posted in a political thread in my life but I have to say...
Wow....
This is totally f*#ked up.
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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"The first amendment either applies universally or not at all."
You're absolutely right TGT. It SHUD apply universally to all PEOPLE. Last I checked, a corporation is NOT A PERSON. Try inviting one over for a beer, for example. Can't do it. Its not a sentient entity.
Unfortunately, the enourmous campaign contributions made possible by the extensive coffers of big business in the U.S. will continue to destroy the democratic process by manipulating the media exposure of selected political candidates.
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ontos
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
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This non-sense that a corporation is simply a collection of people who got together to engage in some lawful activity is plainly false; such an entity would be properly called a partnership. A partnership is simply a group of people who got together to do something. If the partnership runs up bad debts, the partners are each liable, personally. If the partnership commits crimes or violates the law, the partners are again personally liable. A corporation the other hand is a separate legal entity. The persons who own the corporation are largely protected from any personal liability for the actions of the company.
For example, I'm a GE shareholder. Were GE to violate an EPA regulation and incur a large fine, say a fine so large the corporation could not afford to pay it, the value of my shares would erode and may go to zero, but the EPA would not come to my house trying to collect my share of the fine from me. That is because a corporation is a separate legal "person" that is not simply identical to its shareholders/owners.
What disappoints me is that many of you here who are parroting the "corporations are just collections of people" non-sense almost certainly know better. Being so intellectually dishonest is not something that improves my estimation of your character.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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For every poster who is arguing this is a "free speech" issue - since when is PAID COMMERCIAL ADVERTISEMENTS "free speech"?
It's not. Advertising is business/commerce issue, not a Bill of Rights issue.
Corporate America can say whatever they want. Paying to say it across media airwaves is a whole 'nother story. Paid political advertising is NOT FREE SPEECH! It is not covered under the Bill of Rights.
I agree justthemaid, I avoid political threads but this decision by the court is insane. Right wing judicial activism at it's worst that will impact all future elections of public officials for the benefit of corporate America and the detriment of our citizenry.
Very depressing.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
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The American people have just been bought.
You are now officially slaves.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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The country is headed down the tubes. Things are going to get very bad and then people will have to decide where their heart is.
Big money and big corporations already rule, this just makes it worse.
How about some corporate responsibility, if they have the rights of a person? If you see your corporation break the law and don't report it, you go to jail. If the corporation knowingly breaks the law, they go through the same punishments we do. I mean, if you got a DUI and couldn't drive and paid all the fines, you could be ruined right?
As long as speech is not free, as long as speech costs money and is distributed by corporations who are owned by even larger corporate interests, this "free speech" issue is a huge lie.
People are sheep and can be ruled by propaganda. You really think the Germans and Japanese were evil people, totally unlike us? They weren't. People can be shaped by lies, spin, and hype. That's all we will get with the Buck and the Vote are the same thing
Wake up. Like climate change, we have gone close to, or past the tipping point without noticing. That's the real reason the Democrats are a bunch of clawless wimps, they are paid for by those they need to regulate
Peace
Karl
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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Oh, and think about it this way. In the 2008 presidential election, the Obama/McCain campaigns combined to spend about $1 billion.
Last year Exxon had a $45 BILLION profit.
TOTAL AMOUNT OF BONUSES PAID OUT BY GOLDMAN-SACHS, 2009: $16 billion
TOTAL AMOUNT OF BONUSES PAID OUT BY JPMORGAN CHASE, 2009: $27 billion
TOTAL AMOUNT OF BONUSES PAID OUT BY MORGAN STANLEY, 2009: $14 billion
TOTAL AMOUNT OF BONUSES PAID OUT BY CITIGROUP, 2009: $25 billion
They've got the money to drown out every single voice that goes against what they want. This decision is terrifying.
Here's a great concise write up that's pretty much right on target, and can shoot down any agrument that this was a good decision:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/21/the-supreme-courts-citize_n_432127.html
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apogee
climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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John, your view of this issue is extremely idealized and does not reflect the realities of the political process in this century. Reflexively pointing back to the passage in the Constitution defining the right to free speech is overly simplistic and not reality-based. There must be a solution that preserves those core principles yet addresses the completely imbalanced process that will occur with unchecked corporate (and labor) $ pouring into the political system.
I'm not saying McCain-Feingold was perfect, but it was an attempt to deal with a very real problem.
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Kevin K
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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There are some days I am so glad to be Canadian..... North America is well on it's way to imploding with Coporate Greed an Excess. The Glutony and Materialism/Consumerism makes me want to puke!
Watch "The Story of Stuff" by Annie Leonard on You Tube.
Kevin
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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Awwww, fer feck sake.
Line 'em all up on the wall.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Jan 22, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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A quick afterthought; what is the foreign interest in the corporations allowed to contribute?
edit; "....A very large percentage of U.S. corporations are owned by foreign persons or entities. In 2006, USA Today reported: "Nearly one in five U.S. oil refineries is owned by foreign companies. Foreign companies also have a sizable presence in running power plants, chemical factories and water treatment facilities in the United States." It was also reported that, "Roads and bridges built by U.S. taxpayers are starting to be sold off, and so far foreign-owned companies are doing the buying." In 2008, it was reported that foreign ownership of U.S. companies "more than doubled" between 1996 and 2005...."
yeppers...
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Binks
Social climber
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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The decision is so bad it has completely undermined the meaning of patriotism.
Being a patriot is now just a decision of which corporation to align with. It is an utter joke. Politicians might as start wearing their corporate sponsor lapel pins. It's more honest. Why stop there? We can have "the Exxon White House" and "Monsanto US Department of Agriculture". LOL... I'm laughing with amazement that the greed has become so transparent that it's coming out completely in the open like this. The USA is a joke.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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It was a sombre moment when I heard the news yesterday.
The reality is that corporations have completely dominated (albeit in an underhand way) the political landscape in America in recent decades.
After this decision, that dominance becomes far more complete.
Its hard enough to get politicians to craft legislation in the interests of the American people as a whole, henceforth it will be next to impossible.
The ability and willingness of your government to craft legislation in this way is the basis of Democracy. Even if you buy the argument that the current laws are an infringement on the free speech rights of corporations, the damage to our democracy is so great that it trumps all other concerns.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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Just a slightly off topic question. Are you guys happy about anything? How about a random thread where someone says 'Oh look! What a bonus!'
Everything seems like one big whinefest.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power"
 Benito Mussolini
That's where were heading with this ruling.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Again Wandafuca misses the point.
M/F did not just restrict the free speech of corporations, it denied it for any group speaking collectively.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 22, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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What about the case that led to this decision?
Someone wanted to show a movie, and the Government (F.E.C.) told them they couldn't because it was a political movie.
The Supereme Court said that was wrong, and that was the right call.
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