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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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The zeroth law, where humanity comes in beyond humans....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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Oh and the "free will problem" by the way is solved.
Only ol time philosophers and ol time theologians bring it up
as a last desperate measure to keep their antiquated disciplines
around a little longer.
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WBraun
climber
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High Fructose Corn Spirit just spouts different reflective intellectual gymnastics.
Anyone can do this ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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that's a great idea L, no disagreement for a week...
I wonder how it's going to turn out?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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Yeah,
and "mummy paint (salve made from ground mummy parts) applied to wounds helps the healing"
and certain women burned alive rids the village of demons...
that's right, and one man's truth-claim is as worthy as any other man's...
sure, no disagreements, no judging, for a week. Okay, let's try that as the ticket to move us forward.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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While I cannot yet answer the cheetah question - I do have the answer to another time honored conundrum:
Which came first?
The chicken?
Or the egg?
Answer: - The rooster came first!!!!!!!!
;)
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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So now you tell me...
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L
climber
H2O..what the heck is this H2O thing you speak of?
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"and "mummy paint (salve made from ground mummy parts) applied to wounds helps the healing"
and certain women burned alive rids the village of demons...
that's right, and one man's truth-claim is as worthy as any other man's...
sure, no disagreements, no judging, for a week. Okay, let's try that as the ticket to move us forward." -- HF
Corn...yer dirty DNA is showing. Your enemy patterning. Your nailed shut and mummified mental constructs.
Perhaps you missed the part where I said YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE with anyone's position...just LISTEN without judging or rejecting their right to have their opinion. Your post above is filled with more judgment than an episode of Judge Judy.
And THAT'S my point. See how threatened you are at even letting someone have an OPINION that differs from yours.
If you're so worried about "moving us forward" on the evolutionary escalator...you might look at what it takes to live in peace with everyone, not just those who agree with you.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I have been programmed to say that I'm not a robot.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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High fructose.
Once again, I am just using the scientific method and questioning your assumptions. You state them as though they are fact, ie, the repubs are this, and the dems are that, or that sciences knows that there is no spirit because it didn't find one.
So I asked you, what if your current tools are not sufficient to find spirit. So far you have no answer for this. This is the great weakness of science. Yes, you can create many great theories, but if your foundation is false, then the whole theory is false.
Belittling spirituality as being bronze aged thinking does not prove your point. At one point, science believed the world was flat.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Ah, L, you're just tryin to get a rise out of me.
Climb on!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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We climbers are the highest form of humanity on the planet just now.
Have to ask why we are discussing anything with 'robot high fructose
corn syrup'? Robots take orders. They don't give em or have opinions.
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
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I'll start a new post
so as not to mix a meaningful one with a silly one.
Moosie, first lets agree not to mix science and politics. (When speaking about Dems and Rep, you sort of have to speak in generalities and statistically through a lot of noise, murkiness and such. That's what I was doing. Also, this really isn't a political thread. Plenty of that on those other threads. And remember, I'm a Clintonian and Obamaman. )
Didn't find any angels under the planets looping around the sun, either. The theory of gravity (thanks Newton, Keppler, Copernicus!) is sufficient. That's all I'm saying about mind. Neuroscience is sufficient. Here at the start of the 21st century, we have a lot more chapters in neuroscience than we did at the start of the 20th. And they all point to mental funtion (i.e., mind) as brain output to control the body.
On another post, it's pointed out how much of our mental faculties and behavior are a function of body chemistry. I agree.
So the issues facing us today, at least the ones i'm interested in the most, concern how we as a species are going to adapt to this new understanding.
Augh, no way Moosie did I belittle spirituality. No where did I do that. Don't put words to me I didn't write. I practice a spiritual discipline (not a supernaturalist theism) whose focus is spirit-building (cf: muscle building) after all. So you take that back, Moosie! We were talking about mind-brain relations. We were talking about religious institutions that rely on supernaturalist belief. Just as there are differrent god concepts, there are different spirit concepts. Spirit derives from the latin spirare, to breathe. I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. My beloved Julie, who's is lying under my feet snoring, is a spiritual being having a canine experience. I distinguish between (a) ghost, ghostly spirit and (b) carnate spirit. So there.
P.S. At no point did modern science (beginning 1500 or so) believe the world is flat.
Aughh, so much ancient theological bull to cut through, so little time...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I just want to know if he still believes that the republicans are the party for small government and fiscal responsibility.
edit: and yes you did belittle spirituality when you compared it to bronze aged thinking.
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okay,whatever
Trad climber
Charlottesville, VA
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HFSC, I gather from your early posts in this thread that you're frustrated that humans don't run their societies and governments and even interpersonal relationships based on a thorough scientific understanding of what makes us tick at the atomic/biochemical/evolutionary level.
I am a scientist, and believe that the "robotic" (yeah, we're all physics and chemistry at bottom) model underlies everything we are and do, but at the same time it can't currently address all the emergent properties that make us human and make our lives worthwhile, day to day. I don't spend evenings with my family or friends, or days climbing, worrying about where my joy and love come from... I'm just being the creature I am.
I wish more people had an appreciation for science, too, but at the same time, religion (of one stripe or another) has been a part of being human for millenia, for better or worse. I don't happen to be religious, but any accounting of the human condition, and any plan for its future, has to take religion into account. I'm more or less on Dawkins' side, but think he has been a bit rude in dismissing the less-than-full-belief-but-somehow-meaningful (to them) way that many people embrace a faith... just a meme, perhaps, but important to them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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Alright, I think we're done, Moosie, as you're making stuff up now. Or taking it out of context without care.
Yes, today's religious institutions are chockful of bronze age ignorance and show no interest in righting their ships. Not one Abrahamic religious model is willing to come forward and say, yes, our conceptual foundation (i.e., our theology) esp in regard to "what is" was laid down a long time ago in pre-scientific times and is in need of updating. Instead the tack is, our theology is perfect, it's the Word of God (Jehovah), and you don't change what's perfect. To this, I say, Shame.
No Okay, I'm frustrated that three billion people (including about a billion Muslims) would rather cling to an ancient theology as their conceptual foundation for how the world works (What Is) than embrace a new belief discipline model based on the sciences.
There are three important subjects: (1) What is. (2) What matters. (3) What works. Science is the tool for investigating the first one. The first one. The second and third are our responsibility.
Okay- your second paragraph I agree with wholeheartedly. Hurray! Higher up in the thread, you don't hear me saying were "just" atoms and molecules or "merely" an evolutionary product or "nothing but" flexible test tubes (the latter from another thread). Those are the words or those are the framings of others. Indeed, I believe we're so much more than atoms and molecules and brain circuits! For example, we're climbers, man, and lovers of women. As sophisticated biotic robots, we are chock-full of functionality, evolved functionality. How cool is that? That is very cool!
Okay, whatever, re: third paragraph: Word. Very thoughtful. Just sayin, so you know, I distinguish between religions and spiritual disciplines or religions and belief disciplines.
I have a spiritual discipline (for life guidance) and it's all about the "what matters" and "what works" questions in addition to the "what is." And, delighted to say, it doesn't have an iota of supernaturalist doctrine or belief in it. Was it hard-won in a culture still largely superstitious? Yes.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Asimov's proposed laws for robots are not definitions of a robot, as some have proposed here.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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I tried to read most of the above posts and kept reminding myself that we all are climbers. I think?
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okay,whatever
Trad climber
Charlottesville, VA
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HFCS, I understand the distinctions you're making in your response to my third paragraph, and agree (I just lumped philosophy/belief systems/religion all into "religion" for syntactic convenience).
Per your response to my first paragraph, I certainly don't pretend to know the answer, but it seems to me that there is a big power issue at the heart of how politics/governing proceed at the intersect with religion (or belief, or what have you). I would suggest that those in power exploit those with beliefs to support them, regardless of whether those in power have a genuine or even similar belief or not... absolutism sells, unfortunately.
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