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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jan 14, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
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Would you send me a topo if I wanted to climb it? I've always wanted my first El Cap experience to be memorable, with a high probability of failure. I used to think Wings of Steele (sorry) or NIAD but they've been done.
Maybe this should be a PM...
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Jan 14, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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An ascent is undeniable. You said it there. What was ascended..... A route. You dumb SHI T egomaniac. Sloan, you are bat sh#t crazy.
It's not on a blog, so it never happened? Really?
The Schrodengers cat argument isn't applicable.
Just because you aren't privy to the details, doesn't give you the right to rewrite history.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Jan 14, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
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Ahhhhhhhh, I can't help myself....
I have written a fair bit about this route on this forum and anyone can contact me if they need more information. I have released topos to routes that I have done just none to Sloan as I said up thread.
Steve has released topos just not to you.
And he's willing to share, just not to you.
And he's published info. about the route, just not to you.
See there's a pattern...get it?
If a tree falls in a forest...
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Jan 14, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
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I find it very weird that Steve Grossman is contesting the authenticity of this new route
We can add poor reading comprehension to the growing list of Eric Sloan's faults.
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DaveT.
Big Wall climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Jan 15, 2016 - 05:51am PT
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Wait a minute....
A proud line, I'm sure of it. Difficult? You bet (my guess). A clean and elegant line up one of the biggest pieces of stone, yes. A solo ascent? Sure, except those pitches that you climbed with a partner, and the one that you never climbed up top. The last pitch of the route has never been climbed?
This reminds me of when I tried for the third ascent of the Tempest. After fixing two pitches (solo) I blasted for another 12. On the morning of my 13th day, a big October storm came and killed a few of the other climbers on the wall. During the five day storm I was able to climb 80 feet from the top, spread over many hypothermic attempts and lead falls while trying to crest the top. I couldnt make it.
The rescuers came to the top to retrieve the dead. They asked if I wanted a rope thrown down. I said no, but by the end of the day I said yes. I knew right there that my solo was absolutely ruined and voided. This stuck in the back of my throat like a bad taste, untillfinally I went back and did the right thing, and climbed that damn last 80 foot pitch. From the ground.
From Steve:
The lower free pitches were established with a belayer
Though not exactly rescued, I have been helped out by friends big time along the way.
where nearby and things looked grim until the light came on. "Fig, ahh, any chance that you could toss me a rope?" "Sure thing, Steve,"
We consumed everything he brought and talked late into the night
with Fig's much appreciated assistance, hauled everything up, over and down to the Valley floor.
And one about Erik trying to tell Steve about the free route that climbs some of his route, the PreMuir:
So many things wrong with that post. 39 pitches and no names...hmmmm. Idiot, just as I said.
Produce a topo of this supposed route if it is "real" there Laughing Boy
So, wait. When the pitches are hard, even on a 'solo' I can have a partner come climb the first pitches with me, and I dont have to include them as a first ascent participant? How come no one helped me top out any of my walls in Patagonia or Baffin? I never would have fallen onto that piton and sliced my fingers open (risking being able to make the summit push later that day) if I had someone helping me top that one sketchy ramp out. it would have been a whole lot easier if someone belayed me on the first pitches and then helped me finish it!
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DaveT.
Big Wall climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Jan 15, 2016 - 05:56am PT
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p.s.- That previous post was neither a pro-Erik or anti-Steve effort. In fact, If I could name twenty of the more influential hard aid climbers of the Captain, Steve would be right in there. This is nothing personal, just giving my opinion about a style of ascent. In fact, I think it looks like one of the better El Cap lines...
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nopantsben
climber
europe
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Jan 15, 2016 - 06:09am PT
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I have seen those bolts to the right of free blast. I thought the preMuir was a different line. I was pretty baffled when I saw how close they were - was it drilled by hand? Hard to believe ...
Anyway I find that such crag-style bolted routes shouldn't be on El Cap. Then of course I have only seen half a pitch here and there of this route so I can't really say anything. Who did the FA?
edit: preMuir is indeed a different line, it follows the Muir to Mammoth. This is much further right.
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DaveT.
Big Wall climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Jan 15, 2016 - 06:16am PT
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Hi Ben!
Yeah, i'm not exactly sure where turning point is in relation to the other routes, all I know is that robs free route takes parts of it, and those parts were free climbed. When I was referring to the portion that have been free climb, I was speaking about the headwall pitches.
Thanks again for letting me stay at your place in Austria last summer, I'll be there again this summer! Maybe not that far north/east though.
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DaveT.
Big Wall climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Jan 15, 2016 - 06:22am PT
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Those bolts could also be Quo Vadis, Medetterainio, or Grape Race.
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nopantsben
climber
europe
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Jan 15, 2016 - 06:23am PT
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Hi Dave!
Was good to see you last summer! Let me know when you are in Austria, would be great to meet up! Maybe we can even fly, if I get to take the course this spring. First I need to nurse my broken scaphoid bone back into shape :)
Rob's route makes use of TP higher up but the thing Erik refers to is between Salathe and Nose and some times very close to the free blast so you can see it from there. Lots of fat, new bolts iirc.
I hope all is well with you!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 15, 2016 - 08:27am PT
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The TP starts up Pineline for about 30' and goes left past two bolts to the belay (5.11a) The second pitch climbs up and right past three bolts ending at the end of the first technical pitch on the Nose (5.11cR). This second pitch follows the right angling ramp down climbed by Mike Graham when he and Worral(?) tried to do the Salathe free that way. The third pitch aids up a conspicuous left facing corner to a bolt and a swing to 5.10 and ends on the tiny Companeros Ledge. The fourth pitch starts with a short tension traverse and then climbs up and right before moving well left under a small roof to reach the top of the original bolted section on the Salathe Wall. The TP then follows the Salathe for a pitch before swinging out of the Half Dollar to reach intermittent cracks leading to Band of Gypsys Ledge. A conspicuous thin right facing corner shaped like half of a bishops Mitre is the only clear feature in this section a pitch below BOG Ledge.
The route was started in 1983 with Mark Blanchard who had to leave to get back to work and convinced me to go solo but I got chased off by a storm from my high point bivy under the Half Dollar and came back the following year to finish it. The final push had one retreat after I took a fifty footer and briefly psyched out just above where the TP crosses Mediterraneo. I had a belay on the first four pitches of the TP.
Sounds like this other route is to the left of the TP for the most part at the bottom and likely starts up Reeds Leads.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 15, 2016 - 09:19am PT
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Kevin- No offense intended on the history of the Graham Traverse. "Tried" only means that you guys didn't free the rest of the route.
While I was doing these pitches Bachar came by to make sure that I knew about your efforts. I said that I did and assured him that I had run out the entire ramp that Mike down climbed to pass through that section except for the very last moves to the belay which were solid 5.11 smearing and needed a bolt to avoid a 120' screamer.
Apparently Royal got fully pissed of when Mike told him that he had chopped some of the bolts on his route and demanded that Graham surrender his hammer as the story goes. Royal unfortunately didn't remember the incident once I got a chance to ask him about it directly.
"Give me your hammer, son!" LOL
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 15, 2016 - 09:34am PT
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Okay E: so we got ascents, the specifics of which are known only to the ascentionist (until shared), and routes, which are the shared, public idea of said line of ascent.
I am not at all clear that this parsing of the concept is widely shared, but I understand now where you're coming from.
You have also asserted elsewhere that once the drill comes out and public lands have been thusly altered, the ascentionist owes the public a record of the ascent. There is arguably some merit to this idea, but I'm not sure that this standard might not be met by a description as simple as a Roper-style "follow corners for several hundred feet, swing left to another corner which is followed to the top." The demand for a more granular level of detail seems to be a problem mostly for people writing guidebooks. Don't get me wrong, I like beta, and the more the merrier as the route and rack get bigger, but I can appreciate as well the impulse to leave room for a bit of mystery, privacy, and head-free nutcraft in this world.
I kind of like it that some routes are vague. People who want ST-level detail can go climb Mescalito with a stack of topos and mp. beta, and people who want a bit more uncertainty of outcome can have a go at the Turning Point. I don't see this as a big deal.
PS You're not winning any friends by referring to really proud ascents as "alleged." Just sayin'.
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nopantsben
climber
europe
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Jan 15, 2016 - 09:36am PT
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Erik, an ascent is done via a route. If I drive from SF to LA and tell no one about it, I still followed a certain route. Who cares anyway. I think there is only one person who believes a route is a social construct, which is enough for that person, -i reckon. Calling tp not a route is kinda hilarious. Oh well .... Besides that, I hope you're well Erik.
What's all the secrecy on this new route about? Who is the FA party? Where does it go higher up?
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jan 15, 2016 - 09:39am PT
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(Ben, that's a traverse)
But I have to agree, an ascent is done via a route.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 15, 2016 - 09:49am PT
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I don't enhance hook placements, chisel copperheads or resort to any trickery and never have.
Should be the standard practice.
In the end, whether or not Steve Grossman climbed a route or not is debatable. He did ascend the mountain known as El Cap, but a route is something of a social construct - a line that is delineated by an individual, or individuals, for others to climb and enjoy. If there is no route description, no topo, arguably there is no route.
What kind of f*#king sh#t is this guy on? I am new to this thread, but did he really say someone placed a new bolt every 10 feet on Steve's established pitches? God, that's messed up, if true. No matter how difficult is the climbing higher on the route. Pitches that WERE climbed without 15 bolts, but with 3, should be let alone unless the party that HAVE CLIMBED them allows the addition. Not out of some purist ideology, out of respect. There are some unspoken rules when it comes to the conquest of the useless. No idea what was the style of Steve's ascent, or if he completed ALL the pitches on his route, but what he DID do should be respected. F-ing it up is not something to brag about Erik, even if it was not you doing it.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Jan 15, 2016 - 10:06am PT
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There are an awful lot of routes out there that are not defined by a "topo". The "route description" is used to define many routes. Although, I will be the first to admit that poor route descriptions often leave the line's location open to interpretation. I am particularly thinking of a few routes on Hallet's in RMNP, I've done several "ascents" up several classic "routes" and I don't think I was "on route" more than 60 or 70 percent of the time.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 15, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
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The funniest part is I think that Mike did hand it over if I remember correctly.
Do you recall how many of the original 13 bolts you tigers deigned to leave in place during the upgrade?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 15, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
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I've been a part of at least nine grade V or longer new routes with only one or two of those even briefly mentioned in the "climbing media" with a few vague sentences at most. All of these ascents were on little known mountains with little published or known about the areas. Among many reasons we didn't feel the need to be validated by reporting our climbs other than to a few trusted friends. For more than half those routes we did not draw topos and hardly discussed any sort of ratings. In general these big wall routes follow natural lines (cracks) and we tried our hardest to keep the bolt / hole count low. This route list includes several difficult free climbs with most routes involving several pitches of nailing.
It seems laughable that a person who admittedly never does first ascents should be leading a discussion on the meaning of "an ascent" or "a route". It makes me sad to know this person has taken it upon himself to modify existing routes by adding bolts to bolt ladders and establishing bolted variations to crux pitches, to make it easier for ill prepared climbers to complete the route.
I am not an El Cap climber. From the description Grossman provided in Alpinist (printed some 8-10 years ago) it seems that someone who was familiar with the features of of El Cap would have a fairly good idea where his line would go, particularly since it was done in the early days when natural lines still were for the picking. SG said the line could be seen in the right light. If I were a 5.13 climber looking to establish a bolted (or natural line) up El Cap it would seem prudent to ask around, study topos and do a little research. Hopefully the team of this much hyped new route did their homework.
Anyway, Steve it sounds like a most proud route you put up on El Cap. Thanks for keeping some mystery and adventure alive.
Albert
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