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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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I was lucky to meet Warren in Moab at Eric Bjornstad's place. We spent an evening with them and our posse (Gordo and...)on one of our annual southwest trips (16 easter weeks in a row). It was an honor and delight. I wish I could remember more.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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Good point Rik, that is just what I am saying here. These two men were bound together on a bunch of levels, some of these levels not even known to them.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Peter thank you for your kind words.
Back in 1970 /71 I viewed climbing as sweaty, dirty & dangerous.
Today I read the various trip reports and see a very different picture. I appreciate the courage and tenacity as well as the physical ability that it takes to be a proficient climber. I enjoy reading the first person stories of the various climbers. I guess you can say that you can teach an old dog new trick. I have just turned 70, I like to think I am still learning new things and can still form new opinions.
The hard part of dealing with Harding's story is his addiction to alcohol. I often find myself thinking that considering his dependence on alcohol from an early age it's really amazing that he was able to do any of the climbing feats that he is known for today. His drive to conquer the walls did overcome his drinking for many years. In the end of course it caught up with him and certainly injured many of his personal as well as family relationships. I am learning about more detail of his family life from one of his relatives. I can only say he did not leave all of his bad behavior in the Mountain room or at camp4.
Saying all that I still remember him before alcohol took complete control of his life. If I can share my kinder, nicer image of him with all of you, then I have done a good job.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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Rat, leave behind the whole Warren, in other words the Real Warren. This is what we all should do.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Susie,
are you still working on a book about Warren?
John
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Fascinating thread.
What an opportunity lost! Those idiots. We might have gotten to know more than we--yes, even Tami!--wanted to know about his testicles.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Things above.
The shot of Harding and Robbins was, yes, at a trade show but
much later than the 70s, at the Reno trade show in 1991.
About fathers and stepfathers beating Royal. Based on my conversations
with Royal, he was never abused by his father Shannon, rather
simply abandoned -- which definitely hurt Royal.
James Chandler was another matter, the alcoholic
stepfather who was violent and both physically and psychologically
abusive. He made Royal take the name of Jimmy Chandler. Beulah and
James were only married for a little over five years, but it was a
tough time, undoubtedly. Royal
always was strong, though, and independent. If he had any real
fault it might be his absolute trust in himself and his own mind and
subsequently his sense that his point of view was the right one.
He had built some of his character out of hardship and continued
to do so as a climber. He found the best of all worlds
in climbing. It quickly became his own. With climbing, it seemed,
Royal not only furthered his confidence but built a kind of
psychological "tower" into which he could escape the world's evils.
That's badly put, but the gist. I think he has always appreciated
the existence life has given him, and naturally he has mellowed
somewhat. Yet his coldness, as people have perceived it, and his
arrogance, fanatical self-reliance, to the point that it has
always been difficult for him to be taught others, and
his condescension at times, all such...
are part of his defenses... which seem at times to be with
him even today. He and Warren were a real match, in terms of
egos. I don't mean that in a derrogatory sense.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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(Rat, leave behind the whole Warren. This is what we all should do.)
Not sure I can do that & still tell his story.
John, yes I am still plugging along. I have some health issues keeping my attention this year. Like Harding would say, I will keep on, going on.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Susie, good!
Sorry to hear about the health issues, but at 70 things go downhill fast, as I am find out for myself at "only" 62. I hope it's minor like the aches and pains of aging arthritis and nothing worse!
As for working on a book about Warren, wow it has to frustrating just to get information from the dwindling number of people who could help out with your project.
Susie, your work IS important because you had a unique relationship with Warren that was not climbing related.
I hope you had a chance to visit with Alice before she died.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Really enjoyed reading this thread. Great perspectives and insights, thanks Peter and everyone else.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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What a great post, Crunch. A Playboy rejection letter to Galen regarding Warren with a Sheridan cartoon.
One would like to imagine---hypothesize actually---that if Warren hadn't been 'shot down' sort of at the peak of his climbing powers and instead had flourished in a way he privately had undoubtedly hoped (perhaps even imagining a great triumph with the WEML) he would not then have really let alcohol continue to increase its hold on him, in fact flat out kill him. But alcoholism is so terrifically problematic and one of the great and deadly adversaries for an individual. Regardless of what might be going on around someone, alcoholism will trump everything else and be by itself alone, the active and crucial issue, all other issues benched. It is that compelling to its victims.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There seem some parallels between Whillans and Harding in later life. After being rejected by Bonington and the establishment in the early 1970s, most notably for the 1975 Everest southwest face expedition, Whillans turned to a self-destructive life of drinking and smoking - although, as with Harding, he continued to have an attractive, subversive persona. Those, and becoming something a caricature of himself, seem to have been Whillans' raison d'etre in later life. Like Harding, he had it under control while at the peak of his game, and was a superlatively strong climber. Then quickly lost it, perhaps with aging.
You wonder about Freudian things, also. Robbins was younger than Harding, just as Bonington was younger than Whillans. Both were to some extent mentored by the older man, although Bonington perhaps more so, and both Robbins and Bonington came from broken homes. Hmmm.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Yeah Mighty Anders, good. Let's make no mistake. Climbers need each in all sorts of ways, sometimes even desperately. Imagine spending that much time, effort and risk and NOT needing your partners ever--- that would be effing psychotic, primitive even. But usually the human condition and need for support remains downplayed in climbing far too much, even today still as we make so much progress in this respect.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 16, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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I only briefly met Warren in C4 BITD, never really knew or spoke with him.
Peter, so true about alcoholism. Last year, The World Health Organization (WHO) came out with a report listing 30 substances that are abused, in two categories, Firstly, the damage done to the individual, and secondly the harm to society.
Guess which substance came in number one in both categories. It is a neurotoxin and it caused my partner's (Jennie) medical condition, and took a lot of people like Warren out of the picture.
As one of her doctors said, if alcohol was discovered today, it would be illegal, a Class A drug like heroin and cocaine. But as my GP said, it is so ingrained in much of human society.
I don't mean to be lecturing or preaching.
I wish I had known Batso a bit more. Another legend I only briefly met, Fred Beckey, at least is still going strong, hopefully.
I didn't really know any of the others. Such as Pratt, Robbins and Chouinard, met them in C4, but I was a beginner and in awe of them. I bouldered with Galen at Indian Rock, Berkeley. And Bridwell once, I was fourth (not the FA though) up the rope on Lunatic Fringe. Climbed with Charlie Porter a couple of times (no walls though).
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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For sure Patrick; the world would be very different without ethanol. I am sure I would not like it mostly, much more rational much more progressive thought it would be. Imagine being without benefit of all those wonderful beverages. It would be hard on other primates too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pmnzIhbX2bg
Even some animals make ethanol from scratch and many more will try to steal it manmade, even elephants invading rice beer breweries. I understand there is a type of monkey somewhere that smashes fruit into upright hollow log ends, waits for the mash to ferment shortly and then goes about getting terrifically drunk when that time quickly arrives. But of course far more radically, jaguars commonly eat yaje (yajeh) plants, then roll around and play "kitten", perhaps high perhaps not without the benefit of a MAOI to let the DMT through the blood barrier.
The desire to transcend is so great everywhere but so often this world must put that need on a scale and pile costs and pain on the other end.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 16, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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There is a difference in that usage of alcohol in moderation is not (for most) addictive or harmful, although it may be, especially for the 5 - 10% who are susceptible. There is no safe "dose" for most other self-administered drugs, e.g. tobacco.
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Hardshell
Trad climber
Ketchum Idaho
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Sep 16, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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I have two memories of Warren--the first on a snowy May night in about 1975 in the Valley--drinking excessively at the bar with warren and others---the crew was starting to break up and warren stumbled out into the dark. After a few minutes several of us left and decided to catch up with warren--we followed his tracks across the parking lot, thru the wet snow and under a parked tour bus. We pulled him out and shouldered him off into the night as the tour bus loaded and pulled away.
The second was at a mid-70's debate in Seattle sponsored by the legendary Swallow's Nest climbing store--between well known ethical puritan Ken Wilson, esteemed editor of Mountain Magazine the leading climbing magazine at the time, and Warren. The went at each other for over an hour in front of about 800 people in a UW lecture hall. After it was over, at the usual Swallow's Nest beer bash, I spoke with Ken and he was nearly distraught---he said Harding was much smarter, more clever and logical than he had assumed...clearly frustrated, he exclaimed "I think he got the better of me tonight..!"
Both memories capture the extremes of the man.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 16, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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Ah...Wilson, I am sure pompous and pontificating.....Harding sly, drunk, clever- a night for the ages. It is sad that Warren fell prey to alcoholism, he was so talented- both athletically and intellectualy. Alcohol, climbing's biggest pitfall. We all joke about climbers we know drinking 20 beers a day. My best army friend and my first climbing partner did that. I was the one who talked his mother and his girlfriend into telling the doctors to pull the plug. He died from sclerosis of the liver at age 56.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Thanks Peter - and all - for this thread.
I was a bit disappointed in “Valley Uprising’s” depiction of Harding. Yes, he loved the wine. He never drank or took drugs on any climb I did with him, although I do recall he took a bottle on Royal Arches before I met him. Yes, he occasionally had a sports car, usually well-used - but we drove up for the Nose in his old station wagon. And he indeed loved the ladies, as who doesn’t. He and a lovely friend actually lived with Cindy and me in the “back bedroom” of a 28 foot trailer when I was first a ranger, and I can’t say anything about the 20-pounders but there was no lack of testosterone. But he wasn’t just a wild drunk, and he did care about what people thought.
His intelligence was underrated. We had some wonderful wide-ranging conversations as the gallon of mountain red or the bottle of Paul Masson Rare Tawny Port diminished, and those conversations and his crazy sense of humor made some otherwise miserable bivouacs quite memorable. We laughed our heads off some nights on the Nose - without the wine. I don’t know if anyone heard us. Would have sounded quite mad.
It took a lot of sauce to make him maudlin, but when he got there you found that he cared about others’ opinions. “”Everybody is out to get Harding, goddamit!” he said a few times.
He had great respect for Royal’s abilities - it was just the attitude that irritated him. Royal wrote one time - I can’t remember where “...a first ascent is a work of art, and anyone who climbs it afterward should do it exactly the same way.” That really set him off, and me too.
He had other outdoor interests besides climbing. One summer and part of a winter he and I got into diving in Mother Lode rivers with wet suits, a little suction dredge and pump, and a “Hookah” air compressor and air line. We dove through ice on the South Fork one winter and I’ll never forget the pain of returning circulation. Never found ten bucks worth of gold, but we had a lot of fun.
He was generous with his friends, too. Warren was a working man. He could only climb weekends or holidays or when unemployed, and was never really flush for cash. I was even poorer, going to SJS on the GI Bill on $100/mo., and he usually came down from Sacto. to San Jose to pick me up on the way to Yosemite. I couldn’t afford to drive my ’50 Studebaker. He bought a lot of the gear for the Nose, including most of the fixed ropes that the NPS mandated we fix all the way as there could be no rescue. When Cindy and I got hitched, he gave us a Kelty pack, which was a pretty pricey item for most of us those days.
There was a lot more to Warren than is generally recognized, and I’m grateful for the thread. Thanks, all.
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