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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
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The international community's position that it is preferable to fully settle disputes [rather] than to recognize refugees' right of return [is] supported by a recent ruling by the European Court of Human Rights. The court debated the right of the Greek refugees who were expelled from northern Cyprus in 1974, and five months ago it ruled that due to the time that has passed, it would be wrong to rectify the situation by allowing them to return to their homes and expelling those who currently live in the area." (Ynet News)
By this logic the Jew's claim to Palestine as a "home land" is a non-starter as well!
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
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Jeff,
You definitely failed logic.....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The Jews were certainly not the first people/civilization in Palestine - read the Tanakh for details. First they passed through on their way to a sojourn in Egypt. Then they returned and occupied the place, smiting and killing the previous inhabitants. Noting that the Tanakh (old testament) was written by Hebrews, who had every reason to downplay the presence of others in the 'promised land' of the 'chosen people'. (Historical fiction...) As time goes on, it's becoming pretty clear that the Hebrews (Habiru) were just one tribe amongst many squabbling in Palestine, and didn't have control of much until about the 11th century BCE.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I find it interesting that conservatives get their panties all in a twist anytime you say the words 'international treaty' because of the assertion they involve pre-empting the U.S. Constitution. But then they have no problem at all with the subrogation of U.S. interests to Israeli interests. And anyone who thinks those interests are the same has been dropping way too much acid.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oh, and the show trial of Omar Khadr really sums up what is so pathetic about notions of an Islamic threat to the West and the whole U.S. response to 9/11.
We've spent MILLIONS to shoot, detain, treat, transport and try a 15 year old boy who ended up in the middle of a firefight. Now, he may have been on the wrong side of that firefight, but the idea that some random 15 year old boy could somehow come to represent a 'high value' terrorist or al-Qaeda threat to the United States is about as compelling an indictment of the current wars as you could create. That this kid (and the Uyghurs) ended up in Camp Delta at all tells you how ludicrous the whole deal down there is and highlights what a political show boondoggle it all is.
Hey, out of 775 they've had maybe - maybe - a dozen 'high value' suspects worth the bother, the rest are all bullshit like this kid who may - may - be guilty of heaving a grenade during a fire fight. Guess what it is that people do in battles, they fight, and that's what the kid was doing. What do you suppose it would cost to set up a military tribunal to try every guy who took a shot at us during these two wars? Ridiculous.
It's one thing going through all this bullshit and trampling both our Constitution and the Geneva convention for a Himmler, OBL, or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - but this kid, it's all so wrong on so many levels that the military and the administration should be ashamed of themselves on fiscal reasons if not moral ones.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I think you confuse Libertarians for Conservatives
Is that the latest refuge of all the folks who have fled the Bush camp...?
P.S. What do the real Libertarians think about this rush of suddenly libertarian-minded republicans? Or have all the right-leaning Libertarians gone Tea Partying and left a vacuum for you guys?
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gonamok
climber
aging malcontent
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This "evidence" that war with Iran is imminent is nothing more than a bunch of opinion pieces. But what disturbs me more than the warped perspective and closed mind of the author is I think he wants this war with Iran.
War is always bad. It is the worst case scenario, to be avoided at all costs. Iran has been the regional power for 3000 years, and the minute we leave Iraq they are going to move right in, and theres nothing we can do about it. If they want to make a nuclear weapon we cant do jack about that either.
Fear of Iranian influence in the middle east, concern over nukes, exportation of terrorism or threats to Israel are not grounds for war. Not for the US anyway.
Its human nature to portray our favorite team in the best possible light,
but Israel has been far more intractable, arrogant and demanding than the arabs over the palestinian issue. They also hold military hedgemony in the region and can fight their own war if thats what they want.
Lest we forget, there was a nation called Palestine up until 1947, when it was eliminated from the map by the colonial powers that created Israel. They could have given the palestinians a strip of barren desert to call a homeland, but they didnt even get that. For Israel to ignore the palestinians need for a homeland is the height of hubris and shows an alarming lack of compassion and humanity. How quickly they have forgotten that they were once in the same situation
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bluering
Trad climber
CA
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War is always bad. It is the worst case scenario, to be avoided at all costs. Iran has been the regional power for 3000 years, and the minute we leave Iraq they are going to move right in, and theres nothing we can do about it. If they want to make a nuclear weapon we cant do jack about that either.
So why not just give up and hand it over to Iran, right?
And there's plenty we can do to prevent Iran's nukes. Open your mind.
For Israel to ignore the palestinians need for a homeland is the height of hubris and shows an alarming lack of compassion and humanity. How quickly they have forgotten that they were once in the same situation
Who is the less compassionate and less reasonable partner in peace???
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gonamok
climber
aging malcontent
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Oh, and to say that the palestinians should happily assimilate into syria, jordan or lebanon is ridiculous.
Thats the same as saying that if some superpower redrew the map and eliminated the USA we should be happy to become canadian or mexican and not want our country back. Get real.
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bluering
Trad climber
CA
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Well, Jordan won't have them, remember Black September??? Nothing like good 'brothers'...
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gonamok
climber
aging malcontent
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1- we already handed Iraq over to Iran when we deposed Hussein. No matter how long we stay, the minute we leave, Iran takes over. Who is going to stop them, Turkey? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Iran and Iraq have held each other in check for decades. Its long been a given that if either nation became sufficiently weak, the other would take over. By taking out Iraq we have literally handed it to Iran, its only a matter of time.
2- We are currently doing about all we can to counter Irans nuclear program and it only fuels their resolve to get it done. They have the resources and technology, and there aint a thing we can do, including go to war with them, to stop it.
Do people have some idea that Iran would be a pushover? As depleted as our human and material resources are after years of fighting 2 wars that we still cant win, any success in Iran would be short lived and come at a bitter price. This is a fools dream.
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gonamok
climber
aging malcontent
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you are wrong sir, check any map prior to 1947. Where Israel now sits you will find a larger country named Palestine.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The 15 yearold members of the Crips are pretty seasoned fighters.
True, but we don't spend millions to try them or bring them to the Supreme Court. As for "seasoned fighters", here's Omar's timeline for becoming seasoned. One month from alleged 'weapons training' to his first firefight where he was present as a translator.
In early 2002, he was living in Waziristan with his mother and younger sister while his father visited infrequently, and took up beading his mother's clothes as a hobby...
According to charges signed by military commission officer Susan J. Crawford, Khadr received "one-on-one" weapons training in June, as his visits home became less frequent...
In the early morning of July 27, 2002, a team composed of 19th Special Forces Group, the 505th Infantry Regiment and a "militia", composed of approximately twenty[28] Afghan fighters loyal to mercenary warlord Pacha Khan Zadran...
This kid is a real high value prisoner and threat to the security and interests of the United States of America. If we don't try him it will be a devastating blow to the war on terror.
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gonamok
climber
aging malcontent
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Aug 12, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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fattrad,
My point was that there once existed a palestinian homeland and a place called palestine before Israel was created, and none after. That the palestinians got screwed by foriegn powers was not Israels fault. I do think that the jews should show more empathy and understanding toward the palestinians plight, having been similarly dispossessed themselves in the recent past. Israels apparent attitude of "we got ours, screw you" on this issue, and their lack of concern for the the humanitarian tragedy caused by the blockade makes it hard to see them in a good light.
Let me also say that I admire Israel and support the jewish state, but not everything they do.
I dont know what you mean about the weapons.
The thread has become a fight over opinions at this point, and I respect your opinion and your right to it. I believe that intolerance is the biggest problem in the world today, and i sure dont want to add any more.
shalom, keep up the good fight
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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The fact that Hamas was a creation of the Mossad would be almost funny if it wasn't such an effective tactic.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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Mossad creating Hamas is right up there with the CIA creating al Qaeda.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 13, 2010 - 04:02am PT
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The threat from the MidEast, while not trivial, is a flea compared to the strategic elephant that is an increasingly modern and educated China. A new generation of technocrats and wealthy nationalists seek to rebuild national esteem and pride and to reclaim a sphere of influence over the western Pacific.
China's People Liberation Army demanded a tough response to U.S. plans to send an aircraft carrier to naval exercises near its coast, saying that "respect" was at stake.
The Israeli/Palestinian impasse is a primary cause of unrest in the MidEast and a distraction which grows more costly [to the U.S.] with each passing year because it keeps our eyes and resources on entirely the wrong strategic threats.
The "clash" is simply static we can no longer afford.
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