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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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For cryin out loud! Sharon tried to give them a palestinian state. Everything is always twisted when viewed from outside the window. One can only praise the wonderful and honest media reports coming out of Gaza and extol the fairness of the Hamas controlled media. Right?? People in this country have had freedom for so long they take it and everything they read/see for granted. Israel doesn't want to opress the p's they need them. They were forced to build the wall to stem the tide of intifada bombings and it worked. It even had Israeli detractors. Many Israelis deplore the violence on both sides. Hamas didn't gain power because the jews were treating the p's like sh#t. They did so because Fatah was severly corrupt. They did so because their incompetent leadership caused a depression. What they need is a true representative gov that has the welfare of the people at heart. Ain't gonna happen with Hamas, probably not with Fatah either.
Here is a link to the basics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories
Edit: "On 1 December 2004, Sharon dismissed five ministers from the Shinui party for voting against the government's 2005 budget. In January 2005 Sharon formed a national unity government that included representatives of Likud, Labor, and Meimad and Degel HaTorah as "out-of-government" supporters without any seats in the government (United Torah Judaism parties usually reject having ministerial offices as a policy). Between 16 and 30 August 2005, Sharon controversially expelled 9,480 Jewish settlers from 21 settlements in Gaza and four settlements in the northern West Bank. Once it became clear that the evictions were definitely going ahead a group of conservative Rabbis, led by Rabbi Yosef Dayan, placed an ancient curse on him known as the Pulsa diNura, calling on the Angel of Death to intervene and kill him. After Israeli soldiers bulldozed every settlement structure except for several former synagogues, Israeli soldiers formally left Gaza on 11 September 2005 and closed the border fence at Kissufim. While his decision to withdraw from Gaza sparked bitter protests from members of the Likud party and the settler movement, opinion polls showed that it was a popular move among most of the Israeli electorat"
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Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
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My views haven't drastically changed since this thread started, but they have definitely evolved to consider complexities in the matter that I had not so thoroughly contemplated before.
I have appreciated reading the insights and factual material from Ahad, Karl, GC, Philo, Bluering, JBar, Fatty, Mighty, Uncle Doug, Woody, and others. Thanks guys.
Now, I will do my best to never post to this thread again. Its title, and all the other offensive posts put up by that idiot Scabang do a serious injustice to an otherwise intelligent conversation.
*I know this post bumps it to the top, but it was already 3rd from the top 5 minutes ago..so I figure at 2am it won't make much difference.
I hope we can bury this one, and if there is further discussion that it appears on another thread with a more respectable title and some self-restraint from the more vitriolic posters. Peace.. Bertrand
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/01/06/2009-01-06_from_her_lips_to_gods_ear_the_fury_of_a_.html
so, is this palestinian mother a nazi because she calls for the extermination of HAMAS?
what do you think the chances are that this woman, who expressed her disdain for hamas in front of the media, will just coincidentally become a victim of the israeli attacks?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477244,00.html
now, during israel's self-imposed 3-hour cease-fires to allow humanitiarian aid to reach palestinian civilians, do you think hamas will take advantage of the time to divert their manpower to assist in the distribution of the humanitarian supplies or care for the wounded or simply move their weapons away from mosques, schools, hospitals, civilian homes to minimize further civilian casualties? no? i don't think so, either...in fact, i think hamas will continue to launch rockets into israel and will commandeer "humanitarian" supplies for their own use and will look for maximum exposure (for civilian casualties and media attention) targets from which to launch more attacks...just a hunch
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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" do you think hamas will take advantage of the time to divert their manpower to assist in the distribution of the humanitarian supplies or care for the wounded or simply move their weapons away from mosques, schools, hospitals, civilian homes to minimize further civilian casualties? no? i don't think so, either...in fact, i think hamas will continue to launch rockets into israel and will commandeer "humanitarian" supplies for their own use and will look for maximum exposure (for civilian casualties and media attention) targets from which to launch more attacks...just a hunch."
Yes, but don't think that the Israeli's armed forces won't be using the time to rest up, refuel and reload. The militaries on both sides are going to take as much advantage of that time as they can. The biggest advantage will be to Hamas though because they are the ones who are cornered and need a "time out" the most.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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These Israeli/Palestinian conflicts always end in an impasse.
The Israeli's could wipe out Hamas, but they won't because they will buckle under internal and international pressure before that happens.
Hamas would wipe out the Israelis if they could, but they don't have the capability. So they terrorize the Israelis as much as they can while hiding behind the innocents, making it impossible for Israel to wipe them out without killing a lot of innocents. This creates pressure both at home and internationally for them to stop.
So 1,000 people will be dead without anything to show for it. Maybe some Hamas and Israeli politicians will benefit?
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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Bertrand - the fact that the title ISRAELI NAZIS made you and other Zionist apologists on this site wince every time you saw it gives me great satisfaction. Now you can return your attention to your GQ magazine and your soy latte (extra hot, of course) until the next genocide.
Shalom.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Clearly the IDF will shoot first and tell answers later. Clearly they will fire on anything else that is or might be firing. Helps to explain why more IDF casualties are caused by "friendly" fire rather than by insurgent fire.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Hamas representative Fathi Hamad stated it explicitly: "For the Palestinian people death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life."
It's impossible for Israel to hit back at Hamas without harming and killing innocent civilians. As Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu has pointed out, by aiming at Israeli civilians and using Palestinian civilians as human shields, Hamas is committing a double war crime.
But you will wait in vain for an international outcry."
i guess the real irony here is that the ones actually seeking, promoting, attempting genocide is, by their own admission, seeking, promoting, attempting the genocide of their own people
damn jews, how dare they pull out of gaza as strongly urged by the whole world as a way to achieve peace only to receive in return constant rocekt attacks...how dare they respond to thousands of rockets fired at their civilians with superior firepower...how dare they try to protect their people...how dare they try to destroy the terrorist organization that proudly accepts responsibility for the rocket attacks and also for the deaths of their own women, children, and elderly
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Again Bookwork, a very one sided view. Perhaps it would be fine for Israel to do all those things if they didn't continue to break international laws and agreements (even their ones with the United States) by expanding illegal settlements, and grabbing land.
(not to mention other provocations)
Behind the scenes, they aren't the peace-loving innocent victim you portray, and the land that Hamas is shooting rockets at isn't even acknowledged to be a legit part of Israel by the International Community (UN still recognized the 67 borders as legit Israel)
67 isn't so long ago. If the Arabs had invaded the US in 67 and took your place, would you be a terrorist for striking at that same land later?
Not saying the rocket attacks are right, but if I'm standing on your fingers, how righteous is it of me to point at your frenzied response and violent temper?
Peace
Karl
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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the israelis pulled out of gaza three years ago
the '67 borders do not include land that israel captured in a defensive war...according to the un and the geneva convention, land captured in a defensive war can be retained as long as a threat exists
perhaps you'd like to convince me that israel faces no threats from other states in the area... or convince me that if israel pulled back to the '67 borders all threats to israel's existence would end
remember only ONE side of this conflict has always, continues, and will always call for the complete destruction of the other side...again, i'll give you three guesses, karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Skip, I'm condemning the acts on both sides.
Who's right, the Hatfields or the McCoys? Depends on whether you ask 2 billion of Hatfield's relatives or 1 billion of McCoy's relatives.
and Hatfield owns the world's press so that comes into play.
Fact is, the people on this board are no better than Israelis or Palestinians. If you were born on one side, you'd see it their way, if born on the other, see it the other way. The challenge is to see it both ways and I see little of that, either here nor there.
Ironically, there's a lot more soul searching about how Israel proceeds in Israel than here.
"the '67 borders do not include land that israel captured in a defensive war...according to the un and the geneva convention, land captured in a defensive war can be retained as long as a threat exists
perhaps you'd like to convince me that israel faces no threats from other states in the area... or convince me that if israel pulled back to the '67 borders all threats to israel's existence would end "
First, Israel wasn't attacked in 67 first of all. It was a preemptive war just like our war on Iraq was justified.
Second, the UN ruled on what Israel should do after that war, it was Resolution 242 which Israel violated.
Third. Israel is the only country in the hood with Nukes, I don't think the other states are a threat regardless of borders. Hypocritically, we in the west don't have a problem with an unstable small country getting nukes in a trouble spot as long as, like Saddam BITD, it's our ally.
Forth, Elements on BOTH sides have continually called to push the other out. Elements on BOTH sides have called for peace.
And both sides have engaged in actions to do exactly that, push the other out. Israel has done so most sucessfully and has the power so they have more responsibility.
Peace
Karl
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Skip you are back!
Eat my sh#t you poor excuse for a carbon unit.
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WBraun
climber
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It's Skipt not Skip
At least get your names right while you're losing it, hahaha
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Very little perspective.
ooooh.. blame the folks in the school, who probably didn't know that someone fired a mortar from the school.
Mercy..
Yes kids should be able to go to school without being attacked. They should also be able to come home from school and have a home, not one bulldozed by the Israelis. They should also be able to sit in school and not be shot by an Israeli sniper. They should be able to come home and have running water and food to eat.
There is your perspective.
Like Karl said. Both sides have a perspective.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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More good news.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_re_us/joe_the_plumber
TOLEDO, Ohio – Joe The Plumber is putting down his wrenches and picking up a reporter's notebook.
The Ohio man who became a household name during the presidential campaign says he is heading to Israel as a war correspondent for the conservative Web site pjtv.com.
Samuel J. Wurzelbacher (WUR'-zuhl-bah-kur) says he'll spend 10 days covering the fighting.
He tells WNWO-TV in Toledo that he wants to let Israel's "'Average Joes' share their story."
Wurzelbacher gained attention during the final weeks of the campaign when he asked Barack Obama about his tax plan.
He later joined Republican John McCain on the campaign trail. At one stop, he agreed with a McCain supporter who asked if he believed a vote for Obama was a vote for the death of Israel.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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I can't lurk anymore when Karl Baba makes a comment like:
"First, Israel wasn't attacked in 67 first of all. It was a preemptive war just like our war on Iraq was justified"
How can you post something that is just clearly, factually wrong? Of the three Arab nations Israel went to war with in June of 1967, Jordan is easy: it attacked across well defined, recognized borders on Monday, June 5th (this was after Israeli troops attacked into Sinai). Jordan attacked Israel first. Then there is Syria, which started the whole move toward war in May 1967. They were bombarding Israel with artillery long before June 5. Unless you subscribe to the theory that firing artillery at a country is an act of war UNLESS the target is Israel, Syria attacked Israel first in 1967.
So, what about Egypt? Israel rolled into Sinai on June 5, attacking Egyptian troops that were there (EDIT: and of course the Israeli air force simultaneously destroyed the Egyptian Air Force). Is this what you mean by "preemptive war?" If so, explain what reaction Israel was supposed to make given that Egypt had summarily dismissed the UN peacekeepers from Sinai and moved 6 divisions of troops to the Israeli border, all while telling the world they were going to attack Israel. Threats only? Maybe, but repeated MiG overflights of Israel prior to June 5 were acts of war. Oh, and the prior closing of the straights of Tihran by Egypt to "jewish" traffic, was also an internationally recognized act of war.
Comparing this to the United States' bullsh#t, completely stupid and optional war in Iraq is nuts.
Karl, I understand that your main point isn't about who "started" the Six Day war, but facts matter, and you seem way too smart to make such plain errors. Unless we apply those special rules of international law that exclude non-catastrophic attacks on Israel from being acts of war, all three "main" Arab combatants committed acts of war against Israel first in 1967.
Sorry, but I had to call you on that one. (Gone now until tonight).
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"That is the line Uncle Doug normally uses to pick up women in bars.
"
At least I'm picking up girls SkpiTTTT.
So Skipt, where is all this dirt you have on me?
Remember how you wanted to "boogie" with me?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Karl: "the land that Hamas is shooting rockets at isn't even acknowledged to be a legit part of Israel by the International Community (UN still recognized the 67 borders as legit Israel)"
Karl, this is incorrect. ALL of the land Hamas is shooting rockets at is within the pre-1967 borders. Look at a map of the 67 borders and the current borders. Israel withdrew from Gaza to the 67 borders. The only difference is that in 67 Gaza was under Egyption rule and now its under Hamas rule.
Israel has not withdrawn from all of the West Bank, but Hamas isn't shooting rockets at the West Bank.
"Perhaps it would be fine for Israel to do all those things if they didn't continue to break international laws and agreements (even their ones with the United States) by expanding illegal settlements, and grabbing land.
(not to mention other provocations)"
The settlements have been decreased in the West Bank. And ALL of the settlements in Gaza were removed.
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