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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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The repeatability question seems to be put to rest. Ammon has found a way to hook with what's there, be it natural or micro-enhanced, it all looks the same - desperate.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Mighty...
The occasional clannish hostility to outsiders in Yosemite goes back to well before Wings of Steel
I remember more than once Mark Klemens being VERY direct in his approach to outsiders. Makes pooping on ropes seem tame.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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JB: Is it cheating to wear shoes with 5.10 rubber while hooking less than 90 degrees?
I've long felt that the 'natural' progression of dry tooling/mixed climbing would be to use ice tools and rock shoes, in summer. Imagine really sharp tools - probably with leashes, but bring a file - combined with sticky rubber, say on WoS.
And a few ascents with ice tools would quickly put to bed arguments about hypothetical or real enhancements. Perhaps it would also be possible to have an ice farming operation, dribbling water onto the slab from above, for those who want the winter experience.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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If Ammon comes down and says this was harder than Jolly Roger, will MIMI divorce Steve and try and hook up with Richard? I mean obviously she'll be too old and uncool to get Ammon.
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Mimi
climber
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prod, I pointed this out earlier as Russ did. Ammon's screaming up there is not a surprise. He isn't drilling his placements as he goes. Unlike the FA. I hope he knows to reach for a narrow Logan. And I hope he hasn't dropped his drill sharpening stones. LOL!
It's funny that so many of you so readily accept that the FA basically enhanced the entire great slab. Way to go guys. Such high standards. The official wos tally has 145 narrow Leeper Logan hook placements. How many of these do you think were created with a drill or a chisel on that area of El Cap? How many of you comprehend this simple question? Or do you think these guys having nearly zero hooking experience were so talented to pull this off clean? There were several eyewitness accounts at the base that heard the constant tapping during their amazing 39 days on the wall.
The sound of constant tapping also followed these guys up their next two El Cap disasters; Ring of Fire and Winds of Change. They were reported to the rangers for Ring of Fire by other climbers on either side on the wall demanding that they be made to stop. If you bother to read their accounts, they denounce these routes and continue to hold wos up as their proudest accomplishment. If they were so good, why did they admittedly butcher the next two FAs that they put up? And all the while, they used the Bridwell standard as their MO. If it was okay for him to do it, it's okay for us.
That's all that's missing from ending this controversy once and for all. Bwana just needs to come clean. But he won't. He's a victim of terminal false pride. And obfuscation. But such is the reign of the Philosopher-King Richard of Hindsight. And his trusty steed.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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these guys having nearly zero hooking experience
They did an early repeat of Sea of Dreams... whats your hooking experience?
(purposely leaving out hilarious but overly obvious pun)
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Mimi
climber
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bringmecrap, no worries there. The hooking on the JR that Steve did roughly at the same time as these clowns had a drill taken to it destroying the original natural hooking. Unfortunately, Ammon never got to experience anything like the FA. We're as curious to hear how this goes as anyone else. And again, neither Steve or I have ever held a position that this route isn't difficult. It's how it was crafted. This is the basis of the argument. The mudslinging is background noise that is so typical of internet forums these days. As I said before, lovers vs. haters. You choose.
GDavis edit: you remind me of white trash. No surprise.
Bwana brags about how easy he found the Sea due to the huge carved out hook placements assuming it was in its FA state. It bolstered his defense of their own carving, since in his mind, their's was less obtrusive. Like that justified what they did. Another speed ascent on their part, about 15 days. Every pitch A5 to these hooking experts.
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Mimi if A0 bathooking is what was done, then why hadn't your husband gotten up there and done the proper thing and erase that route on lead? I have plenty of hooking experience and a bathook is a bathook... easy. Hey Warren H. and Grant erased parts of Ring of Fire on lead... so what gives? If this was such a great concern to you and Steve then sounded like a perfect mission for the climbing/ethic police to go up and clean things up... hell I think that hell route over by Native Son needs to get chopped as well, you two are going to be busy...
And reporting these guys to the rangers??? Jesus, at the end of the day it's a f*#king rock... and these guys are putting up a new route, but so many of these wankers will allow people to drill on established routes then hang on the bridge like they are some type of hero... Think things are way out of wack here...
Kurt Burt
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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GDavis edit: you remind me of white trash. No surprise.
Bwana brags about how easy he found the Sea due to the huge carved out hook placements assuming it was in its FA state.
How did you find it? My friend who led Valhalla when he was 18 said it was easy, so i tell people it is too.
I have no idea if the route is hard or not, what the route is like, if it is 100% enhanced or the super gnargnargnar that some claim.
What I DO know is that depending on who you talk to it is either a) badass or b) not as difficult as reported. Depending on who you talk to.
You seem to want to focus on it being bullsh!t, because if you are wrong you have to eat crow. if Ammon says its a crap climb, I don't have a pony in the race. I haven't been up there. You seem married to the idea (figuratively and literally) that the route is sh#t because there is just so much hate you've invested in their style for the last 30 years (longer than I have been alive, btw).
Instead of having some extremely negative thought patterns, how about you excessive some restraint before passing judgement? There are probably hundreds lurking here, waiting to see yet another person give their opinion. The route could be all you profess, I am not saying that is out of the possibility. But why be so entrenched in your thought pattern?
(that image, by the way, is a Bundt cake. Because your acting really Bundty.)
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Mimi
climber
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kurtburt: the fact that peer pressure about standards hasn't worked in a long time is a shame. The rock that we adore is what suffers in the long run. And your attitude that it's just a f*#king rock pretty much says it all. We're not police, I just hate liars. When I first got on the ST, I stumbled on the very first wos thread early on. I couldn't believe how Bwana was gloating in the spotlight when the audience at the time had not a clue about what they had done. I called them historical revisionists and he went ballistic. Do you condone drilling a hole for a hook the whole way up and then claiming you did it without cheating? Do you think for a minute that Ammon couldn't fly up that thing if he also cheated? 39 days! Think about it. Read their stupid book.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Do you condone drilling a hole for a hook the whole way up and then claiming you did it without cheating?
Is that what they did? Geez, why didn't you tell anybody you were there for the SA, we could all save ourselves some trouble!
/eatscrow
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Mimi
climber
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Gf*#khead: why not argue the facts instead of taking shots at me? Or is it the Christian persecution angle that draws you to these guys?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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neither Steve or I have ever held a position that this route isn't difficult. It's how it was crafted. This is the basis of the argument.
exactly.
so much apparent vindication in this thread reads "oh wow, so the route really is hard!"
no sh#t it's hard- duh.
that was never the point.
the argument was always about leaving the stone for someone who could climb it without bringing it down to their level, and nothing more.
the assumption has ALWAYS been that the 2nd ascent will in fact be FAR harder than the 1st
people posting here who glorify the FA have long been glorifying the FA.
one particular fella who loves him some jesus loves that these fellas also love them some jesus, and that's the reason he is so invested in this route and these guys, seriously, it's not complicated.
the really really really funny thing is the emails i have from the guy on the wall now telling me about the time he almost kicked said christian soldier's ass for getting all smarmy and suggestive with a 15yr old girl in the meadow, right in front of him, now THAT is some good sh#t bag throwin right there!
(i mean seriously, spending nights on a canvas ledge is not the only thing you are well known for, is it now?)
but what happens on ST is the peeps with long term agendas just wait it out til fewer and fewer people remember the damning material, and whala- let's tell a NEW STORY HERE!
HEY- GUESS WHAT- WOS is REALLY HARD!!! VINDICATION for RICHARD and MARK!!! HOORAY!!!
or not.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Gf*#khead: why not argue the facts instead of taking shots at me?
Its just too
God.
Damn.
Easy.
Seriously though, lets talk facts. This is fun. I like having these discussions with you, honestly, its like word problems for 5th graders.
Fact #1) This climb was put up in a style perceived as shitty. This amounts to a) long time on the route, b) enhancing placements and c) it was put up by outsiders (don't agree? Remember that route Cosmos? I don't because it was while John Lennon was still making music but I don't think I need to educate a person of your esteemed coat-tail riding stature).
Fact #2) Their ropes were cut and shat on, had fatty turds dumped on them, had the rangers called on them.
Fact #3) They defended, ad naseum, their positions online.
Lets start with Fact #1. I don't know HOW many enhancements. It was probably more than 1, and probably less than 145. Until we a) come up with a number of enhancements and b) figure out how many is 'appropriate' to have, we have no yard stick to hate on them for that. As far as the time they took, I would say having sh#t tossed at you and your gear cut is ample street justice, if not a bit heavy handed, no? And as far as their crime for being outsiders, we don't need to argue that being an issue. They have lead at least 1 more El Cap route than you and I, correct? They might have more Wall experience than us then. Move along.
Fact #2. Street justice. This doesn't bother you. Are you into German Porn?
Fact #3. Homeboys are long winded in their arguments. I have a friend that does that. Super annoying. But, hey, some people just talk that way. You are short and to the point. I like that about you babs. Just take 3 sentences to call someone an as#@&%e or f*#k head or whatever, boom, end of discussion. Leaves a bit up for debate, I would argue, but hey everyone has their tools.
Again, these are FACTS. Things that are not facts are unknowns - the number of enhancements, the quality of the climbing, what qualifies as a good hook placement. We can only speculate based on what others have said. These others are everyone from Pete (your BFF), Slater, The Chief, Kevin Thaw and, soon, Ammon and Kait. Lets rule out Pete, since you obviously hate his guts. I'll also rule out Slater, the bad ass dude was too rad for this world and is no longer here to drone on like us idiots.
This leaves Chief, Thaw and soon Ammon. Kevin Thaw, according to you (why would you lie?) said the route was modern A3, not difficult, and had many enhanced hooks. The Cheif said it was legit. Ammon will be our third vote.
This is logic, facts if you will.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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And all the while, they used the Bridwell standard as their MO. If it was okay for him to do it, it's okay for us well.....yep Mimi, I guess that pretty much sums up the 1st ascent, and alpine and trad climbing in general for that matter. If you want to hold the yardstick higher, good for you, but don't knock the gold standard!
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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kurtburt: the fact that peer pressure about standards hasn't worked in a long time is a shame. The rock that we adore is what suffers in the long run. And your attitude that it's just a f*#king rock pretty much says it all. We're not police, I just hate liars. When I first got on the ST, I stumbled on the very first wos thread early on. I couldn't believe how Bwana was gloating in the spotlight when the audience at the time had not a clue about what they had done. I called them historical revisionists and he went ballistic. Do you condone drilling a hole for a hook the whole way up and then claiming you did it without cheating? Do you think for a minute that Ammon couldn't fly up that thing if he also cheated? 39 days! Think about it. Read their stupid book.
Mimi, shitting on someones ropes, death threats, and the other nonsense is what i mean... if you guys feel that passionately about the rock then please feel free to attack many of the posters on this site that have climbed the captain and drilled an extra belay bolt, or a hole to get by a move, or a head placement that is crap... better eat some fiber cause your gonna need it. I agree with self policing and trying to get climbers to see that they can do things without drilling, and if they can't then move on to something less difficult and this means belay anchors... I have posted about this before and got blasted cause Mike called this person out and I agreed. http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=963.0The spirit of climbing is dead. Did those guys drill up the route? We will soon know when Ammon gets down. Ammon is far from "flying up this route as well. I have climbed with Ammon not only on an FA but also speed climbing, and trust me he is one of the fastest and best out there. So a 2 pitch a day rate or hell 4 pitches a day is slow, and this means the ground he is on is real. If every hook was drilled, or even every 3rd the climbing would go a lot faster. Was it in the style that Steve did his routes? Well they took longer... that is about all we know. Unless these "people" who witnessed the drilling come forth and have better evidence then "I heard a tap" know one but the FA team and Ammon and Kait have the answer. The hatred you throw towards these fellow climbers is insane... I would have went off the deep end as well spent 39 days up there just to get away from the quack jobs on the valley floor.
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#1SuperMama
Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
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As I said before - at the end of pitch five and before they began up 6, Ammon had done it true! I would think that his screams would attest to that! I know that is their desire. And I'll find out more tomorrow.
Pete, tomorrow, I'll try and remember to ask them the finer points of your latest inquiry.
And yeah, they both wish Gabe (the first mate) was with them, but he is off on an adventure. If I could have heli'd him in on Wednesday - I would have!
I can only imagine an Ammon scream that just keeps repeating itself! What an epic thus far! Keep up the thread - the positivity is being felt by the two of them - and the negativity is being ousted. Woot Woot! Thanks for that!
Ciao!
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Mimi
climber
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studly, I disagree. These guys found validation in bad practices and tried to use it to their advantage. One Grade V between the two of them when they left the ground. Hardly contenders. I'm sure they'll both be on here soon. You can see if you have better luck than we have to get Bwana to fess up his hole count. The Sea and the PO and other Bridwell routes are lines which follow weaknesses and crack systems. These guys shunned cracks and natural weaknesses and contend the real test of a man is out upon the blankness. They wrote this in their book. Klaus lurks here. He'll happily tell you a story about where Winds of Change crosses Hole World. You tell me if there's something out of whack here or not. The winds were blowing, but nothing had really changed. LOL!
Mom of Kait: The only negativity here is toward the first two clowns that went up there. And not against the current team. We are all routing for Ammon and Kait to succeed. Their effort will result in the climb being viewed in a much better light.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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These guys shunned cracks and natural weaknesses and contend the real test of a man is out upon the blankness. No offense, but I guess I have to agree with them. I crack climb allot, but last Fall I ended up taking about a 50 footer on steep slab in the Valley, ass over teakettle, brutal. Screw that slab sh#t, that stuff is for real men. Wings of Steel, they must mean Nerves of Steel.
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Mimi
climber
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studly, hahahaha. You're missing the point but I get your point. Sorry, you need to read their book. It's a strange education to follow the story of this saga. It's all about the Great Gleaming Slab of Jesus.
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