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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
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why didn't we bake?
"we've" only been around for the last few of those millions of years...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
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Right now, my bigger concern is the questionnaire being circulated at the dept of energy.
Ed, it seems they want to build more nuclear power, but at the same time lay everybody off who can do so!
Is that "economy of scale?"
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
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Los Angeles City Council backs planning for 100 percent renewable energy
The Los Angeles City Council took a major step Friday toward making the city run on clean energy alone.
The Council directed the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) to develop a plan for going 100 percent renewable, including looking at where, when, and how the city should allocate resources to achieve that goal.
In the motion, Councilmembers Paul Krekorian and Mike Bonin wrote that “the city has an opportunity to re-create its utility in a way that recognizes the potential for a fossil-free future, demonstrates global leadership in its commitment to clean energy, and protects ratepayers from the increasing costs of carbon-based fuels.” It passed unanimously, 12–0, on Friday.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:21pm PT
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http://history.aip.org/climate/simple.htm
Then why pay attention at all to CO2, when water was far more abundant? Although Arrhenius understood the answer intuitively, it would take a century for it to be explained in thoroughly straightforward language and confirmed as a central feature of even the most elaborate computer models. The answer, in brief, is that the Earth is a wet planet. Water cycles in and out of the air, oceans, and soils in a matter of days, exquisitely sensitive to fluctuations in temperature. By contrast CO2 lingers in the atmosphere for centuries. So the gas acts as a "control knob" that sets the level of water vapor. If all the CO2 were somehow removed, the temperature at first would fall only a little. But then less water would evaporate into the air, and some would fall as rain. With less water vapor (and also less clouds retaining heat at night) the air would cool further, bringing more rain... and then snow. Within weeks, the air would be entirely dry and the Earth would settle into the frozen state that Fourier had calculated for a planet with no greenhouse gases.(16a)
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
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why didn't we bake?
c'mon EB, you understand that a singular factor does not control temperature (or climate)
it stands to reason that there is a complex interplay between many influences, like the variable: ocean/land ratio through geologic history, water vapor concentrations in the atmosphere, percentage of sky covered by clouds, extent of land covered by ice and snow versus forest.
Dangitall Hartouni!
What the hell the number four has to do with this I don't know. Never did trust any of them -ists
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
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A lot of this is vision. People can't envision doing something that actually has an impact.
a few years ago, I was up in the Sierra around a campfire, with a bunch of teachers from Fresno, bitching about how they were going to have a new program to collect home recycling. "It will never work!" exclaimed one.
I pointed out we had been doing it successfully in LA for THIRTY YEARS.
http://www.forester.net/pdfs/City_of_LA_Zero_Waste_Progress_Report.pdf
The City achieved a remarkable landfill diversion rate
of 76.4% by the year 2012
The State's diversion rate goal is 25%. LA surpassed that in 1995.
Even with this accomplishment, there are still opportunities to achieve significant additional landfill diversion,
and the City is committed to achieving zero waste by the year 2025.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:43pm PT
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you are correct Cowboy, that is why it is absurd to assign responsibility solely to CO2 levels now.
Core samples are still core samples, and so far the proponents of manmade global warming have not altered THAT data. i resent the adjusting to old data that has happened to support a cause rather than tell the truth. such has happened even with the seemingly inarguable measurement of temperature over the last 120 years, attempts have been made to lower temperature records set in the period prior to 130 because the data did not match the narrative. If the weather caster tells you his model says it is raining, but you look outside at 50% cloud cover, and no rain, which is correct the model or the weather?
I would bet I pick up more trash at a campsite, or along a trail that 98% of the rest here,
i have even been an ecology club president.... but i still look at the geologic history of the earth, and we are well within the normal cycles of the last 300,000 years, and we are low, very low in CO2 when compared to core samples dating back 250 million years. and those very long term graphs, show no correlation between CO2 and temperature.. if i supply it you won't believe it, so look yourself.
meanwhile i will just be a simpleton and look at results that cannot be manipulated, or graphed to make a 25% increase look like disaster...
the North American Continent has a high temperature record of 136 degrees F. set at the Furnace Creek weather station in Death Valley, in 1913. no urbanization there, no urban heat dome to raise temps, as has happened with "average temperatures in so many cities.... if you look at individual weather stations over the past 100 years, local urbanization has increased local temperatures.. but the urban heat dome is not discussed, just the raw data is accepted as accurate and we have manmade global warming!
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
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so malemute make another intelligence comment...
predictable.. when you cannot debate the issue just attack.
the fun part is, higher CO2 levels might be a result of warming.
The cattle industry puts more CO2 in the air than the combustion of fossil fuels, even with Al Gore's private jet.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:55pm PT
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I am unsure as to who is saying that it is solely CO2. Similarly, I do not think that you really believe that a high temperature at one location on the earth necessarily derives from just the immediate vicinity's conditions.
you do see that alteration of just one of those factors can influence the others to push the overall temperatures and climates of the earth in a given direction, right EB?
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:55pm PT
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Mr. Hartouni saidBy contrast CO2 lingers in the atmosphere for centuries.
and water does not?? maybe you can refer me to where water vapor was not present, or was at lower levels, than CO2..
yes, absurd.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:00pm PT
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From the Google machine: water stays in the atmosphere for only nine days on average.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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Scripps Institute shows precipitous drops in CO2 concentrations as measured from core samples...
Cyclical huge increases, without man, and cyclical precipitous drops in concentrations... your rhetoric does not match natural history.
Water is always present in the atmosphere, whether or not it cycles, and always in thousands of times higher concentrations than CO2...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
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and water does not?? maybe you can refer me to where water vapor was not present, or was at lower levels, than CO2..
EdB, I suppose you are just being intentionally obtuse. You've apparently never been in a rain or snowstorm, but have been in many dry ice storms.
Now you are denying things that we all experience every year of our lives, to be argumentative. I thought better of you.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
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that is why it is absurd to assign responsibility solely to CO2 levels now.
Nope, because thats the factor man is dramatically changing now.
Water vapor goes along with the ride. Hence CO2 is the main 'control knob'
The mass of a car does the main damage in an accident, but the cause is often the responsibility of a something many times smaller than the car, the brain behind the wheel.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
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Ken, Water cycles through the system, but it is always present in thousands of times higher concentrations, and wildly more variably to affect weather and climate... to assign similar responsibility to CO2 is absurd.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:14pm PT
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goodnight.
maybe for homework....
Do any of you acknowledge the Pleistocene Glacial ended 11,700 years ago?
or that the Holocene interglacial is where we are now and it is getting warmer??
or that most weather stations are urban, surrounded by more city that 50 years ago, and measured temperature readings are expected to go up as urbanization increases?
do you know that Mars is getting warmer? Insolation?
have fun.
and there is this inconvenient truth:
RECORD HIGH TEMPERATURE BY CONTINENT
North America Furnace Creek Ranch (Death Valley), Calif., USA July 10, 1913 134.0 56.7
Asia Tirat Tsvi, Israel June 21, 1942 129.2 54.0
Africa1 Kebili, Tunisia July 7, 1931 131.0 55.0
Australia Oodnadatta, South Australia Jan. 2, 1960 123.0 50.7
Europe Athens, Greece (and Elefsina, Greece) July 10, 1977 118.4 48.0
South America Rivadavia, Argentina Dec. 11, 1905 120.0 48.9
Oceania Tuguegarao, Philippines April 20, 1912 108.0 42.2
Antarctica Vanda Station, Scott Coast Jan. 5, 1974 59.0 15.0
note that Vanda Station construction began in 1967, so the real record over the past 120 years is unknown.
Record temps cannot be manipulated. record temps are pregore, not postgore.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:25pm PT
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We peaked the natural temps during this cycle about 7000 years ago during the Holocene and they have been generally declining slowly since then, until now.
And thanks for the weather reports, but we are talking about global climate temp average.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
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You're forgetting the Minoan, Roman and Medieval Warm periods Mono. Just because the criminal climate cabal thinks they've adjusted them out of existence doesn't mean anybody but mind numbed robots are buying the farce. In S.E. Alaska some receding glaciers are revealing forests of stumps radio carbon dated to the Medieval Warm period. Besides this, there is voluminous peer reviewed literature documenting the warm periods effects worldwide.
No amigo, there is nothing remarkable about the minor warming of the current period. Nothing, except the ineptitude of the criminals pushing this wealth and rights grab.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:35pm PT
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That's why I said 'generally'.
And those periods had little impact on global average temp because there were localized in time or space.
Sumner is now pouring over the papers on his desk from the 3% and will present shortly.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:39pm PT
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The only icecaps of continental size, Antarctica and Greenland, are gaining mass according to recent studies.
The Arctic is a giant iceberg since it floats on water rather than a true icecap anchored to land.
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