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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 15, 2014 - 03:48am PT
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And the children burned to death there? Did they deserve it?
Why were they punished the same as their elders?
What about seige tactics? That's a well tried strategy. When they got hungry and had no more news coverage most would have come out.
And don't forget, another way our history is different than yours is that we were also founded by a lot of religious dissidents many of whom were just as whacky as David Koreash. It's normally considered a virtue to tolerate them.
Take Doukabors and multiply by a thousand and you get some idea.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Apr 15, 2014 - 04:00am PT
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Well we can hope the see their day in court.
We used to be a Nation of laws. Now we are devolving into lawless vigilantism fueled by Anti-American greedy billionaires. And some would defend this crap. Send in the tanks.
Clearly we Progressive Libtards have learned a valuable lesson here. The next "Occupy" movement should be attended by heavily armed whackos. That way FOX news will cover the story and defend these patriotic Americans taking power away from tyrannical authority.
Because the Occupy movement has been characterized by the far right as an unruly mob of angry dissidents. Pity they were not armed to the teeth so as to get those tyrannical coppers to back off.
Listen we have an abundance of problems in this country not the least of which is a too large a population percentage of ignorant rednecks fueled by reliogiosity and guns.
Lawless mob vigilantes are NOT the way to deal with our problems.
If you support Bundy you are deluded.
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John M
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 04:03am PT
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Hindsight is 20/20. I doubt that there was very many people who would have believed that they would let themselves be burned up rather then give up to the Feds. So how could that have been predicted. Now we are more aware that those kinds of nuts exist, which is likely one reason the feds backed off in this recent standoff.
Plus there are different kinds of religious wackiness. Some are more benign then others.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 15, 2014 - 04:12am PT
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And the children burned to death there? Did they deserve it?
Why were they punished the same as their elders?
What about seige tactics?
Most of these badly-handled standoffs between the government and various whackjobs have a lot to do with the local cultures involved - if Waco had been in Vermont the outcome would likely have been entirely different.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Apr 15, 2014 - 06:13am PT
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We used to march in the streets in peacefull protest against injustices like war, racial inequality and environmental protections. Those were noble causes. What you have in Nevadastan is plain and simple armed insurrection nothing more nothing less.
These peabrains with their pea shooters are not engaged in some noble battle against great injustice. Yhey are NOT speaking truth to power. They are just at best misguided souls and at worst sociopaths itchin' fer a feud with the feds.
Imagine if Martin Luther King had advocated for armed insurrection.
How would that have worked out?.
Please don't Crimea river about some rancher loosing his way of life because the big bad BLM won't let him continue to abuse public lands with his private cows.Tell me how many familys have been displaced when the big banks foreclosed on the family farm?
One asinine old coot rancher on a salt brush wasteland pffft give me a break.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 15, 2014 - 06:54am PT
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Bruce you are a pompus asswhipe. If you just came out and said what you wanted to say without all the bullshit lead up it would have been a constructive argument on your part.
Any of you teabagger nut jobs that want a shooting insurection would do well to look at what has happened in all the other countrys that have tried this recently. they have all turned into shitholes.
Jan. the military will look after their own. any chance to use their toys for real and they jump on it. They are the last folks that I would trust to preserve the constitution. look what happened in katrina. they came in and confiscated peoples guns for no reason other than to use their power.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 15, 2014 - 09:38am PT
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Dude your just being a dick and talking in fcking circles. jan answered you question very well and you are not happy with the answer. the guns are our heritage and our right to protect ourselfs from an over reaching fedral govt even if the actual ability to do so is a fantasy.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 15, 2014 - 09:43am PT
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I doubt anyone actually thinks this is resolved. the feds will get all their paperwork in order, they will get a warrent or whatever and eventualy come back with armored cars and all kinds of sh#t if the guy does not comply. meawhile all the milita typs who showed up are under a homland security microscope.
And yes bruce the guns are for killing people and critters that either threaten you, piss you off or in the case of critters are tasty.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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The BLM took the land
NOT FROM BUNDY THEY DIDN'T. THE ONLY THING THEY DID IS CHANGE THE GRAZING FEES, WHICH EVERY OTHER RANCHER HAS HAD TO ABIDE BY SINDE 1993.
It is despicable that you morans continue to defend a criminal who knew he was breaking the law for over 2 decades.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 15, 2014 - 10:28am PT
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Some of you folks just don't get it that other people from other first world countries don't agree or understand America fascination/right to bear arms.
They find it somewhat primitive thinking. I agree.
Bundy is a common criminal.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 10:31am PT
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It's not over.
The govt will come back any day now and raid the Bundy ranch.
Harry Reid already made the statements the govt will enforce their actions against Bundy.
Also Bundy claims that the BLM strayed from their original agency mission of protection and thus he's doing a civil disobedience by not paying anymore.
He actually paid for years and then stopped after what he said the BLM was not using the fees for what they were really intended for.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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If you have ever been involved in the management of public lands you know these people make up a small percentage of every population.
I helped survey property boundaries because some guy built his shed on Forest Service land because he wanted it next to his driveway but there wasn't room on his lot. Some idiots apparently think he had that right... and the right to protect his shed from the FS with guns.
Remember that one time when the Occupy movement PEACEFULLY set up camp (trespassed and vandalized) in public spaces? Remember how happy the right wing nut jobs were when they got booted? They were practically BEGGING to have them run out of the parks at gun point.
Bundy is a criminal, plain and simple... has been since he refused to pay his grazing fees in 1993.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2014 - 10:49am PT
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He actually paid for years and then stopped after what he said the BLM was not using the fees for what they were really intended for.
So... does that mean I get to mobilize a militia and come to Yosemite and refuse to pay the entrance fee... because I say they aren't using my fees for what they were really intended?
God bless Merkins.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 15, 2014 - 10:59am PT
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Bruce-
An internet forum is where people are supposed to have a reasonable discourse, a standard sadly lacking much of the time. You however, are trying to turn it into a courtroom with you as the prosecutor and people who have different experiences and views as the accused in the witness box. That's why people are annoyed with you. Don't think that because we don't call you out on it, that we don't observe your smug self righteousness. You are as draped in the Canadian flag as any American militia is in the U.S. flag. I know because I visit family there frequently and I have been subjected to your tactics many times.
What I have been trying to do is explain the views of people who live in the American West, particularly the descendants of the original pioneers who were invited by our government to settle those lands at great personal risk and hardship. That's what anthropologists do. We are cultural interpreters. We don't pass public judgements on those we study although in private we do joke among ourselves.
I am no stranger to criticism of America. I have lived overseas for half my life and I was a student in France. The French however, argue fairly, and they appreciate logic whether they agree with it or not. They're not passive aggressive and they certainly don't have an inferiority feeling toward the Americans.You could learn a lot from them. You could also learn a lot about Canadian failings by reading your own First Nation people's literature not to mention that of the French Canadians who for some odd reason don't feel that English speaking Canadians are quite as reasonable as they see themselves.
Personally, I prefer to live in countries that don't have an armed citizenry but given the realities of life in the American West, today as well as the past, a lot of people need firearms here. We don't live in urban Europe or Japan.
I've been in Vancouver when my sister's caretaker called from her farm in B.C. that a bear was dismantling the chicken house by ripping the walls off and what should she do? My sister then had to call a dispatcher in Vancouver who woke up a game warden somewhere outside of Nelson who took an hour and a half to get to the farm by which time the bear was gone and half the chickens dead. And that happened three more times. That's how gun laws work in Canada. Finally my sister had to install a high powered electric fence that killed a lot of other wildlife, in order to keep the bear out until it disappeared, the victim finally of someone with an illegal American weapon in Canada. Shoot, shovel and shut up works in Canada too.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 11:01am PT
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mechrist -- "So... does that mean I get to mobilize a militia and come to Yosemite and refuse to pay the entrance fee...
because I say they aren't using my fees for what they were really intended?"
Of course you can.
But as everyone already knows,
Good luck with that.
After the Yosemite riots back in 1970 the Hells Angels said they're coming to Yosemite and take the park from the govt, and make it the "Peoples Park".
LOL
Or burn it to the ground.
We got hired on as emergency firefighters during that time.
Pretty funny times .....
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2014 - 11:01am PT
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but given the realities of life in the American West, today as well as the past, a lot of people need firearms here
So... why did they need them in this situation? Why did people from WY need to drive to southern NV with their guns?
After the Yosemite riots back in 1970 the Hells Angels said they're coming to Yosemite and take the park from the govt, and make it the "Peoples Park".
Interesting! Rong, Chuff, other right wing pigeons... rally the troops, it is time to take Yosemite BACK!!! Let's do this shit!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 15, 2014 - 11:02am PT
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I always thought Ron is a crazy ass whack job ready to implode/explode. Events like this just brings him closer to that point.
They love this sh#t, they don't care about facts, just emotions and what they can conjure in their little brains.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Apr 15, 2014 - 11:04am PT
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Bundy paid his fees for over 110 years.
Wow, HE is old.
Funny since BLM grazing fees haven't been around for 110 years... prior to the late 30's grazing was unregulated.
But don't let the facts get in the way of your imagination.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 15, 2014 - 11:07am PT
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Jan wrote: What I have been trying to do is explain the views of people who live in the American West, particularly the descendants of the original pioneers who were invited by our government to settle those lands at great personal risk and hardship.
There lies some of the problems...most of that land was given to the "pioneers" for free or at very little cost by the US government.
That sense of entitlement hasn't left some people and Bundy is a great example of that.
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