Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
|
You want trad? You want old geezer traddies? How about
And how about
Put that cam away Sparky, we're trad climbin' here. And oh yeah, ixnay on the alkchay while yer at it.
The incomparable Berndt Arnold in his dotage.
Meanwhile, you youngsters might want to lose the TC Pros along with yer entire rack of metal, chalkbag, and tape job
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:32am PT
|
Under the influence of Stannard
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 07:41am PT
|
MH2:
Higgins right?
Check out the long kernmantle set up on those stoppers.
Didn't really need quickdraws with that set up!
My problem with stoppers on long cord was their tendency to hang too low, to get hung up on stuff;
Lodging in cracks, tangling up in blue jean territory ... and speaking of hung ... generally getting wrapped around one's TradCagones.
Cripes, he's even got the double set up for stacking!
Some things were rather ingenious but never really paid off!
Was that Stannard's innovation?
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 08:26am PT
|
Been to Indian creek? Line after white line of chalk to chains anchors. Yeah, trad is low impact.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 08:34am PT
|
Patrick,
None of our groups of climbers are immune: I mentioned this upthread, to say trad is uniquely environmentally oriented is a can of worms, because it isn't in every case a truism and I further stated that sport climbers in some instances, Shelf Road, Colorado for example, have done an excellent job working with land managers in order to control erosion, implementing minimal hardened infrastructure and so forth in service of reducing impact.
Again, hardly anyone here is saying sport climbing is across the board a bad thing and in general we are NOT not bashing it.
In a word: This is a Trad Climbing Appreciation Thread; nothing more.
It's not inaccurate, however, to say that Trad has a minimalist and minimal impact heritage.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 08:57am PT
|
If Trad is about minimalism
yes, a minimum of safety,
A maximum amount of rules
gear that is often an illusion,
a maximun amount of hope that you will not injure yourself
a maximun belief that you are not chickenshits; yet your climbing contains the observational view to any rationals that you posses a somewhat delusional view about your actual lack of fallibleness/fragileness.
adventure? without focus? people do trad totally stoned. Choose a harder route, a not yet attempted sport route and prestone yourself, I am sure luck is on your side? It seems you tradsters have no or are not able to get adventure in sport climbing--try some drugs? I must say I get adventure either way without dosing. This problem (adventure) is your lack of whatever (ability to focus?) and perhaps related to your ADDH. You can let your mind go anywhere while doing trad.
When you cannot hang on your bone joints indefinitely pain killers become useful and if not in prescription form you might learn to synthesize them only to find some injury.
For me climbing is about minimizing injury and in that way I can climb more.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 09:20am PT
|
Does any other tradition surpass that of Elby?
When I said this I meant that it's probably the best example of Trad.
I'm thinking you misconstrued it to mean there is nothing better than trad in the world of rockclimbing and that no one else is environmentally conscious, or something like this?
Each time a statement is made to characterize trad, it is not intended as some disingenuous, pious, counterpoint to every other style of climbing out there: please .
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 09:34am PT
|
It's not inaccurate, however, to say that Trad has a minimalist and minimal impact heritage.
Right, but the title of the thread is 'What IS trad', not what WAS trad.
In places like Indian Creek, trad has a high impact, regardless of the 'heritage'.
... unless, of course, one wants to argue that IC isn't trad.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 09:39am PT
|
Okay and?
All climbers create impact in direct proportion to the fragility of the climbing environment in which they practice.
Dingus, Patrick:
Is this thread in your opinions such a load of bull, that you would be happier if it ended right here, right now?
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 09:43am PT
|
More about adventure:
in gear climbing of cracks(often these cracks could not qualify as trad because they have been cleaned on aid or toprope) the experienced leader can read the crack moves for several to many meters ahead. It is fun (and mental busyness) to have your mind work the moves ahead for your advancement.
In sport climbing(when climbing near your level of difficulty) the focus is on just making/figuring out the local moves with your energy supply. Remember for sport climbing there is seldom any goal to reach where it will be bone joint hanging.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 09:54am PT
|
often these cracks could not qualify as trad because they have been cleaned on aid or toprope
Although Warbler essentially concluded this, I'm not buying it as a strict rule of thumb. Many, many cracks in Yosemite Valley were cleaned on top rope.
I have a more thorough response to your interest in these distinctions about defining trad vis-à-vis the first ascent experience Dingus, but it ain't ready yet. And it isn't meant to be confrontational.
I'm listening to your distinctions about what typifies sport climbing and they are interesting to me. It's a way of describing what trad is not, fine.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 09:56am PT
|
Tarbuster,
I not talking about the fragileness of the environment but the body.
This thread is fun for me, I hope you can subject your views to critical thinking? Often within a group, little critical thinking exists because to do so would offend the group's unknown or unacknowledged views of how things are.
Whenever you start appending views as minimizing you also run the risk maximizing that parameter when judged by another parameter.
It is of my literary skills to pick up the words cast about against one group and show with those words how they can be used to portray what casting group deny in themselves.
There is a rule in psychology that what we most hate and criticize in others what we lack in ourselves. I do not hate any of these ideas but I find some must have made with little reflection.
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 09:58am PT
|
No, I think this a great discussion and thanks for starting the thread.
I am simply questioning putting trad on a pedistal of minimalism and low-impact. What trad was may have been low-impact, but that isn't what it is now.
Back in the day, trad was mostly ground-up adventure climbing, but the days of easy access to new lines is diminishing. So, trads seeking the adventure aspect of trad drive farther, cut more trails in more remote places, trundle more vegetation and rock to get more remote lines.
I hate to say it, but the lowest impact form of climbing is gym climbing. After you factor out the impact of the plastic holds and the building and temperature control, the carbon footprint of not driving far and not impacting the land makes it the smallest footprint.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 10:03am PT
|
I'm all about critical thinking Dingus,
Other than that, I'm losing you here with your last post, and other than what you just said about sport climbing's immediate bio mechanical demands, I'm picking up quips and confrontational tones both from you and Patrick.
If you would please develop a little more thoroughly what it is you're getting at?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 10:06am PT
|
I am simply questioning putting trad on a pedistal of minimalism and low-impact.
Patrick,
Please reread my last few prior posts. I can't state any more clearly that I am not putting trad on any kind of pedestal throughout any of my statements or writings here.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 10:10am PT
|
Hurley!
George on the right, with friends in Joshua Tree, 2008
An old-school trad guy, mentioned up thread as one who now puts up sport climbs: good for him!
The old-school George:
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2013 - 10:13am PT
|
If Trad is about minimalism, low impact, maximum retention of adventure in rockclimbing
The above statement on the last page is where my apparent confusion stems from.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2013 - 10:18am PT
|
Okay thanks: this statement by itself does not have any exclusionary aspect to it does it? And it is a fact.
And it's a set up for me to elaborate some of the historical aspects of it and how they relate to what trad was and is. It also has a context within the post in which it was found: and none of that is exclusionary if you reread it.
[Edit] Inasmuch as it relates to Elbsanstein, it's hard to fault them for being pretty near the top of minimal impact because they don't use bolts, or even nuts, chalk & cams: fair enough?
[Uh, oops, they use big ass bolts, but way far apart]
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!