Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Mar 16, 2011 - 08:59pm PT

Dunno, he said he can't find any birds this morning and it's very quiet and he just hopes everything gets back to normal soon.

According to at least one geologist (that is not a bird scientist), many animals use Earth magnetism to orient themselves and align themselves. This could have a lot to do with the quake. They left.

Same with some marine life.

I'm no expert, just telling you what I've heard.

WBraun

climber

Mar 16, 2011 - 09:15pm PT

LOL ^^^

But!!

When you see helicopters dumping buckets of water on to the reactors you know right then and there the whole shebang has been breached and they are now winging it to save the the island ......

Aya K

Trad climber

New York

Mar 16, 2011 - 09:19pm PT

I hope he doesn't mind me sharing

We here are O.K. in Tokyo. But Sendai and all the other north prefectures having a very difficult time, I'm hearing. And the other problem is the nuclear power, which increasing the dose in the air even in Tokyo now, and I couldn't find birds singing this morning strangely..this is like a S.F. movie I'm in..
But I know we'll get by and everything's gonna be alright, cross my fingers:)
Marchan came home very late on the Earth quakes day, and she's alright. Thank you for thinking about her. I appreciated it a lot to you.
Oh well, I don't know what to say, but we here are all O.K., and wishing to be things getting better soon.
Anyway, thank you very much for your email, as well as your pray for everyone of us in Tokyo and Japan.

neebee

Social climber

calif/texas

Mar 16, 2011 - 09:22pm PT

hey there say, aya.... ohmy... as to this:

Mar 16, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
Have finally gotten direct word from a cousin who lives in Tokyo; he said that it's very strange because all the birds have left.

i had read a few article on how silent tokyo was, but NOTHING as to this... this sounds like a bad sign, you know... critters kind of get of feel for when to leave... sadly, people-folks cannot do so...

thanks for sharing with everyone, aya...

happiegrrrl

Trad climber

New York, NY

Mar 16, 2011 - 09:43pm PT

"Have finally gotten direct word from a cousin who lives in Tokyo; he said that it's very strange because all the birds have left."

Yes, if a NYTimes reporter had gotten this quote from your friend, Aya, it would have been round the world and back again several times by now. A story headline, even.

Bluering's comment about perhaps the quake triggering the birds departure does have merit. It seems animals DO have an ability to sense natural danger in a way we people cannot. But I think that the person probably would have noticed the lack of birds right away after the quake, if not realizing in hindsight they had been gone already AT the time of quake.

The birds are lucky(if they have traveled, that is); there's no "big bird" suggesting to them what to do. They follow their inner compass. I just do hope the birds have traveled, and not been killed.(I know that reading this surely is causing someone to face-palm, but it is how I feel).

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Mar 16, 2011 - 09:44pm PT

A bit surprising that the JSDF hadn't already got this done.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123247144

http://www.af.mil/photos/slideshow.asp?id={A56CEA6C-E54B-4400-AFD5-5CDD6E44C302}

Their resources must be stretched to the limit.

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Mar 16, 2011 - 09:47pm PT

F*#k, you nuke guys are biased to the point of being out to lunch.....
Thanks for the education on your industry....I have a real good view of why this stuff has been.shut down for so long and a good idea of why it willl be shut down for a lot longer.

Nuke guy? LOL. I have spent 25 years cleaning up Environmental messes from Tennessee, New Jersey, the Midwest on over a dozen Superfund Sites, last place was getting rid of weapons filled with Nerve Agent and now trying to clean up 53 Million Gallons of Highly Radioactive Waste on the Worlds largest and most costly Environmental Cleanup Project.

You fix patients, I fix the Environment. What people do not want to accept is that Modern Nuclear Energy is way cleaner and safer than Coal which currently supplies 45% of the Energy We all use to keep our PC's on line.

EDIT:

I apologize Riley, you are not upset, I was mistaken. You must be an arrogant ass.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Mar 16, 2011 - 09:51pm PT

In Japan the "worst case" scenario is playing out in that the reactors will be lost, but there most likely will NOT be the same dispersal of radioactive materials. The major difficulty in working through this part of the core melt down is managing the cooling, which requires water to be circulated in an "open" loop, meaning that as the impurities in the water are activated they will eventually be released outside of the containment into the atmosphere. This is not at all the same thing as the core exploding and breaching the inner containment.

Ed, you're much smarter then me, and as scientist at one of our two national nuclear labs, are an expert in this field. But I believe your assessment here may be a bit dated. Did you see the link I posted earlier? Here it is again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/world/asia/17nuclear.html

WASHINGTON — The chairman of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission gave a far bleaker appraisal on Wednesday of the threat posed by Japan’s nuclear crisis than the Japanese government had offered. He said American officials believed that the damage to at least one crippled reactor was much more serious than Tokyo had acknowledged, and he advised Americans to stay much farther away from the plant than the perimeter established by Japanese authorities.

...

If the American analysis is accurate and emergency crews at the plant have been unable to keep the spent fuel at that inoperative reactor properly cooled — it needs to remain covered with water at all times — radiation levels could make it difficult not only to fix the problem at reactor No. 4, but to keep servicing any of the other problem reactors at the plant. In the worst case, experts say, workers could be forced to vacate the plant altogether, and the fuel rods in reactors and spent fuel pools would be left to meltdown, leading to much larger releases of radioactive materials.

rockermike

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 16, 2011 - 10:17pm PT

dito recommendation for the NYTimes articles
http://www.nytimes.com/

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Mar 16, 2011 - 10:34pm PT

Did you say the same thing when BP dumped oil in the gulf all summer?

Who's the alarmist, Johnson????

There are no signs of any permanent damage. The whole thing was dealt with pretty well once we committed to it. That whole deal is gone. Just like that.

Gone!

You and Werner need to get a room.

Jennie

Trad climber

Elk Creek, Idaho

Mar 16, 2011 - 10:50pm PT

Ed, you're much smarter then me, and as scientist at one of our two national nuclear labs, are an expert in this field. But I believe your assessment here may be a bit dated.

Hi Graniteclimber

Not to be nitpicky, but there are seventeen U.S. Gov’t nuclear labs. In addition to Livermore… Los Alamos National Laboratory, Nevada Test Site, Sandia National Laboratory, Hanford national Laboratory, Idaho National Engineering Lab, Savannah River Site, Oak Ridge, Y-12, Kansas City , Pantex etc.....

Dave

Mountain climber

the ANTI-fresno

Mar 16, 2011 - 10:51pm PT

"Or are you talking a giant power extension cord, that they needed already 6 days ago; to power up a system...buildings and pumps that are already blown up on fire or breeched and melted out....:

Riley,

Tom Lehrer once said in a comedy skit, if you don't know what are talking about, it is best to shut up.

Take his advice.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Mar 16, 2011 - 10:55pm PT

And while I have utter respect for you, Werner, you apparently fail to realize how the 'modern world' of petro-chemicals and alloy deveopment has affected your safety and that of you teams.

Those choppers that rescue numbnuts of El-Cap don't run on bio-diesal. The pilots are usually Vietnam vets, and the alloys we use today in cams is outstanding.

The ropes are way better.

And radios. Yeah...they're pretty cool too. Not to metion headlamp technology.

All a result of greedy capitalists...

The Japanese are a key fator in all of this. They develop a lot of the tech.

WBraun

climber

Mar 16, 2011 - 10:57pm PT

Bluering

You miss the point completely.

It's completely beyond your comprehension ......

happiegrrrl

Trad climber

New York, NY

Mar 16, 2011 - 10:59pm PT

On a light note....

"dito recommendation for the NYTimes articles"{/i]
http://www.nytimes.com/

The computer-generated voice used on this NYTimes video sounds so much like the ones in XtraNormal moivies, that I can't help imagining the Larry King/Sarah Palin one that BVB made.....

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Mar 16, 2011 - 11:01pm PT

graniteclimber - I don't have any additional information than anyone else who is not there working the problem, and even they have limited information.

The cooling ponds are a potential problem, I agree, but not as big a problem as the reactor cores themselves, as you can in the plot that Mike Bolte put up above, the heat generated by the radioactive isotopes in the spent fuel decreases considerably with time, and the spent fuel is in a configuration much more suitable for storage and for controlling that heat.

As the MIT site points out, there has to be a cooling system failure (that has occurred), the water has to boil out (that is in the process, though some water had been restored to the ponds), the rod has to overheat in air, and then the cladding has to fail (by oxidation)... all these things taken together are not likely, and they also take time to happen, which means that there is time to manage those problems...

...the short term attention is and should be on managing the failed reactors to get them in some "safe" mode.

The caution shown by the US officials and their assessment is totally appropriate, given that we don't know what could happen, and the possibility of a dispersal of radioactive material from a cooling pond failure is certainly not ruled out at this point.

[edit] Jennie is correct in pointing out that there is a nuclear security complex of labs and facilities, Livermore and Los Alamos are generally referred to as the "design labs."

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Mar 16, 2011 - 11:03pm PT

Bluering

You miss the point completely.

It's completely beyond your comprehension ......

I do not mean this lightly, Werner, but maybe you can lay it down for me without the usual Hindu bullsh#t. Make it simple, in a tongue I that I know. Ya know?

WBraun

climber

Mar 16, 2011 - 11:07pm PT

Bluering

I already did and you missed the point.

99% of everything we've made that needs to be plugged into electricity to run is really not needed for mankind to live comfortably and happy in life .....

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Mar 16, 2011 - 11:07pm PT

The U.S. has just very publicly told the Japanese government to grow some balls and start facing the situation. This can only be intended as a slap in the face to the Japanese government. They would only take this step if private discussions were going nowhere.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-send-special-nuclear-team-japan-nuclear-regulatory/story?id=13148044

U.S. Officials Alarmed By Japanese Handling of Nuclear Crisis
U.S. Officials Fear Fukushima Could Become 'Deadly For Decades'
BY MARTHA RADDATZ
March 16, 2011

U.S. officials are alarmed at how the Japanese are handling the escalating nuclear reactor crisis and fear that if they do not get control of the plants within the next 24 to 48 hours they could have a situation that will be "deadly for decades."

"It would be hard to describe how alarming this is right now," one U.S. official told ABC News.

President Obama has been briefed by nuclear experts.

The Japanese have evacuated most of the reactor personnel from the Fukushima nuclear complex and are rotating teams of 50 workers through the facility in an attempt to cool it down.

"We are all-out urging the Japanese to get more people back in there to do emergency operation there, that the next 24 to 48 hours are critical," the official said. "Urgent efforts are needed on the part of the Japanese to restore emergency operations to cool" down the reactors' rods before they trigger a meltdown.

"They need to stop pulling out people—and step up with getting them back in the reactor to cool it. There is a recognition this is a suicide mission," the official said.