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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
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My friend Rick jumped on that one this fall because he thought Luke had told him it was 10a.
For quite a few years the third pitch of The Avalon Connection was shown as 10a in the guidebook. I think Kevin even had it that way in two editions. That was the most sandbagged climb at Squamish as far as I know. I think it's finally been corrected to 10d or 11a. Great climb, though, whatever the grade.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
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Yes, it's rather stout for 5.10a.
Sort of on topic, many of the routes that Jeff and Glenn did were first climbed in autumn or spring, which was a considerable help on the slabby ones particularly. Explaining why many of them seem a bit stiff for their original grades.
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thekidcormier
Trad climber
squamish, b.c.
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Oct 12, 2011 - 01:22am PT
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Mike your stories might be more suited for the Squamish Picture and Stories thread, as is has nothing to do with the 1970s... jussayin`;)
er perhaps even the future thread `Q+A with Tami Knight`
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 12, 2011 - 03:50am PT
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True Luke but I find it tends to spark other topics like above. If Anders had time to post more I would be too busy reading like I was before. I have no problem though if this is considered inappropriate thread drift
Edit No more stories on this thread from me.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 12, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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"Tami Bares All"
That ought to be an attractive thread title.
If I had time to post more... Bwahahaha! Enough, already. You're insatiable.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Oct 14, 2011 - 12:49am PT
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While I appreciate that I am probably the only person in the world who still gives a rat's azz about Bastille, I believe that if we are to produce and use guidebooks, then the information in them should be as complete and as accurate as possible. In my opinion, the present descriptions of Rock On in McLane and Bourdon are neither.
Earlier, Ghost has written:
"We had to excavate every piton placement, and found no evidence of any previous activity. Not a pin scar, no disturbed dirt, no slings, no bolts."
While not quite calling "bulls--t", the inferences are clear. In the early 60s, the majority of the young Squamish climbers spent their summers out of town, climbing mountains in the employment of mineral exploration companies, or for the GSC. Our climbing at Squish was limited to Mar/Apr and Sept/Oct. No lazy summer days of May, Jun, Jul and Aug for us. When we did climb there,in the limited time available to us, the last thing on our minds was cleaning a route. Even if it had occurred to us, we just didn't have the time [or the inclination]. So the fact that Ghost did not find any disturbed dirt or moss etc is not surprising. We chucked any obvious loose rocks etc, but intentionally avoided ripping up the natural aspects of the climbs, like moss and shrubs. Since his ascent occured some 11 years later, whatever minor disturbanc had resulted from our passage would by then have mostly grown back over.
Ghost also remarks that there were no slings or bolts. Fair enough, as none were needed, and we did not place any, or leave any. Finally he says they found "not a pin scar". I take this as a very high compliment. In the early 60s the worst thing which you could say about someone was, "So and so overdrives his pins." Them was fightin' words. We would hit our pins just enough, 'til we heard the first two little 'pings', and then we'd stop. The fact that there were no scars shows that we "walked the talk". I estimate that we actually placed 20-25 pins on the four pitches of Bastille, and it is indeed remarkable that not one of these was visible 11 years later.
However this is all just words. Since I recently learned how to post pix on the site, I can now offer a little photographic evidence to support/prove that in 1966 Bob Woodsworth and I climbed the first three pitches of what is now erroneously called Rock On, when we made the FA of the four pitch route which we named Bastille.
The first photo shows Bob Woodsworth enjoying the view, as he belays at the top of the third pitch of Bastille, during the FA in 1966. Note the patterns of the cracks below him. Several [scarless!!] pin placements are also clearly visible. As you can see, we didn't use slings to reduuce friction.
The second photo shows an unknown climber, in 2010, who mistakenly believes that he is on the third pitch of Rock On. Check the patterns of the cracks above his head. He is very clearly on the third pitch of Bastille. The photo posted earlier by Bruce [twice], shows Greg F in a slightly lower position. The latter photo is correctly labelled as being on Bastille. [Late 70s?]
The third photo shows an unknown climber starting the first [and only] pitch of Rock On in 2009. Bob Woodsworth's belay stance, in the first photo, is clearly visible to the right of the climber's right foot. The fourth pitch of Bastille continues directly up the broken area above his head.
Conclusion: Bastille is an excellent 4 pitch climb, which follows a direct and continuous corner system, from the South Gully to the top of an obvious exfoliated tower. Likely one of the best 5.9s at Squamish.
Rock On is NOT a stand alone route. It is at best a continuation, a variation finish, an add-on or whatever. Rock On, 10a, starts at the end of the third pitch of Bastille, and angles up and left for one long, or two short pitches, to the slabs in the middle of the south arete. This makes an excellent alternate finish to Bastille, at one grade more difficult.
When Rock On first appeared in the guidebook, several of my friends phoned me to tell me that it was a stolen route. A couple of years ago a young climber also used it as an example of a stolen route. The interesting point about that is the young climber had no idea that I had been part of the FA of Bastille! So there you have it, if anyone has read this far. Either Bob and I made the FA of Bastille, or I lie like a flat-fish, or Bob levitated up there and I took his picture with a mega telephoto lens, or there is an alternate climbing universe. Take your pick.
HM.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:41am PT
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While not quite calling "bulls--t", the inferences are clear.
Not sure what you mean here Hamish. I'm certainly not doubting your earlier climb of that corner. I saw your pictures last year and they show quite clearly that you were up there. But the decade that passed between your climb and mine took away all signs of your passage. All. And the guidebook descriptions of the day were vague to the point of uselessness.
So I saw something I liked, and climbed it. I gave it no name, and asked for no glory. I was pleased with what I believed to be the first ascent of something that showed a lot of promise, and was happy to come back and put in the effort to clean it, and recommend it to others.
When two of those others saw the possibility of pushing it to the rim, and put in the effort to do so, I was pleased for them, and thought their choice of name was perfect.
It's now one of the best and most popular moderate multi-pitch routes in Canada. But it is not yours. Nor is it mine. Nor Jim and Bob's. So be happy with the memories of the day you spent on it, just as I'm happy with the memory of my time on it. And as I'm sure Jim and Bob are.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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It's nice to have the full story of Bastille, with photos - I'd wondered about that.
Another mystery is exactly what route Fred et al took to get to the Squamish Buttress, in 1959. The first route from the bottom to the top of the Chief, apart from the gullies. Did they go via what is now South Arete? Calculus Crack? It was some crack system on the left side of the Apron, maybe even over the edge into South Gully.
And another mystery is why the first pitches of Apron Strings and (especially) Exasperator were so clean, even in the early 1970s, and who first did them free. Did someone (Steve S?) excavate and then free them in 1972 or 1973? Or? It's hard to believe that the first pitch of Exasperator was naturally clean, as it was when I first saw it in 1973. It's lowish angle, and the second pitch - really just a continuation of the crack - was naturally dirty, until cleaned by Eric and Dave in 1975.
Although people were perhaps unconsciously 'cleaning' even in the 1960s. Piton placement and removal, however gentle, tends to clean cracks, and repeated foot traffic wears vegetation. I have photos of Slab Alley from 1961 and 1973 which illustrate this quite well. Also, Fred et al were known for taking a saw on routes like Tantalus and Zodiac Walls, in the mid 1960s, whether to facilitate progress, or allow the tourists a better view, being another matter.
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Timmc
climber
BC
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
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Bastille?
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Oct 14, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
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great post Hamie ! I hope to see more pictures from you soon .... Thanks
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MH2
climber
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Oct 14, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
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I like the stories, guidebook or other.
Writing an accurate comprehensive guide to Squamish is a superhuman task, but we can dream.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 14, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
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Writing an accurate comprehensive guide to Squamish is a superhuman task, but we can dream.
Who would want an accurate and comprehensive guide? What fun would there be in world where you could never get off route? Where would the mystery be?
And what would replace slagging guideboook authors?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 14, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
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How to win friends, influence people and make lots of money. Write a guidebook, or a history of a climbing area - in a sense, two sides of the same coin.
The historiography of climbing can be very challenging, and no one is completely objective.
Leaving that aside, we are (perhaps) fortunate at Squamish to have two competing guidebook writers. (Many areas have only one guidebook, for better or worse, and some don't have a modern book, including some well known areas.) Each Squamish guidebook, and its writer, has pluses and minuses. They all seem to help considerably in getting people to climbs, and getting them up the climbs - a key measure, if you look at them only as consumer products. That said, one of the books/writers is more receptive to input from others, and overall seems more accurate when it comes to details and history. The other is sometimes more subjective.
At one time, the guidebook for an area was in effect controlled by a local or regional club, who appointed the writer and financed publication. They made little if any money. The English had a tradition that required that the author have led every climb in the book, which must at least have led to some consistency.
My 1980 Squamish guidebook. Well, let's just say that it may have been a decent effort for a 23 year old, and better than no guidebook at all, but I would do it differently now, and perhaps have another perspective on it. The 1975 guide, although entertaining, didn't seem all that informative or user-friendly, and I hoped to do better. Whether I did is another matter - even allowing for help from Ghost, Tami, Perry and others. I would now spend more time interviewing those who had climbed earlier at Squamish, and reviewing the literature, to sort out the details of exactly who did what, when. (As I'm doing now, for the history project.) In other words, more effort into pinning down facts.
There are interesting issues in terms of on-line publishing, or even guidebooks or information that can be downloaded while climbing, and of course the proliferation of climbers and climbs. How can anyone keep track of it all, and make a reasonable return on reporting it to others in a way that is useful to them?
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Oct 15, 2011 - 04:24am PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 16, 2011 - 02:29am PT
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pre-1983 photo, as the stump is still there.
Hamish, if you're around - Glenn is away until next week - there are some history questions about ten posts upthread, if you can have a look.
Also, do you know anything about the origin of the term "Zodiac Wall"? Fred's reference to it in the 1968 American Alpine Journal, page 180, says "On the shadowed northern sections of the Chief, one great wall dominates; for 1400 vertical feet Zodiac Wall is the sheerest and most difficult of the Chief’s many faces." Did Fred just invent the name, or is there a story?
(For those who haven't visited, this is the wall on the side of the north summit of the Chief, facing toward Squamish. Partly obscured by the Angel's Crest.)
More specifically:
1. Was Zodiac Wall the route name, the wall name, or both?
2. Why Zodiac Wall? Some Age of Aquarius thing?
3. When did the North Arete become known as the Angel's Crest?
And for others, when did the term "North Walls" come into use, and what is encompassed by it? Is it just a synonym for Zodiac Wall, assuming the latter signifies the wall? The major adjacent features have their own names - Angel's Crest, Sheriff's Badge, North North Arete, Promised Land. Does North Walls mean all of these put together?
Steve and Hugh did the second ascent of Zodiac Wall, in 1970. I know that Daryl (and ?) attempted an ascent in the later 1970s, but they were defeated - IIRC, Daryl said there'd been major rockfall, stopping them a pitch short of the top. Has Zodiac Wall had any other ascent? Also, to what extent do more recent routes share the Zodiac Wall line?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 16, 2011 - 10:10am PT
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Does North Walls mean all of these put together?
That's how we always used it. The Badge and everything to its left.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 16, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
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Thanks - bump for Hamie.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Oct 17, 2011 - 02:00am PT
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Timmc Great shot, but looks too steep for Bastille P4. Someone must recognize it????
Jim B I'm saving a few 60s stories and pix for MH's upcoming doctoral thesis on the anthropology of Squamish primates. If this is not available by 2015 I will then start a 60s thread. Promise.
MH Zodiac. No help here. Uncle Fred etc did not climb South Arete. I will email you the background. Maybe they scambled the Broadway descent route.
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