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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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I've enjoyed lurking on the WoS threads for years without ever commenting, so this is my first. The comments of 'Pass the Pitons' Pete--who I have never met (I'm a small wall climber)--have always struck me as being the most reasonable, rational and cool-headed of anybody commenting on these threads. Thanks, Pete, whoever you are! The more I read about this controversy, the more I respect the achievements of Richard and Mark. In my mind the reputation of WoS has been enhanced more by Richard and Mark's critics than by anything they are alleged to have done wrong.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Well said Pete! Pete has spent more time on El Cap then just about anyone, except maybe Chris mac. Pete's a super nice guy in person, generous with his wisdom and advice on big wall gear and stuff. Respect!
Go Ammon and Kait, Rock it!!!
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Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
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I might head up there Sunday for a looksee. Pics will be forthcoming. I don't have a ELCAPPICS lens, but a decent one.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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I would suggest that there have been many more climbers that have been more maligned than Richard and Mark. Most of them were from the alpine zone or flaunted their lycra though.
Pff. Outside Mag or Nat Geo Adventure never got glossy on their character assassinations.
Nonetheless, in the microcosm of weirdness that is the valley - especially in the post-Stonemaster twilight, those guys are right up there. WOS stands as a testiment to their singularity.
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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Well said Pete,
And I do know Pete personally and although I do give him a bit of crap now and then he is a good guy and unlike many others here he takes it in stride:) He is in the Valley every spring and every fall which is more than a lot of other people.
Climbing is more about ones personal journey or challenge. WoS was Richards and Marks personal journey and Challenge now it will be Ammons and kaits. Climbers walk by the base of that route every spring and fall. Some may take notice and some may not. Good climbs surround it that have seen many ascents . IMO more interesting routes than WoS but like Pete said a route that may appeal to one may not to another.
Go Ammon and kait
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Gerg
Boulder climber
Calgary
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The amount of text written about this could publish a WOS book #2. I have not read the first** book, but I am so intrigued to get a copy now. Not Christian so I hope that part is not too heavy, but from what i have skimmed over 652 posts(growing every hour)we could all do with some spiritual insight. I agree with Pass Piton Pete's words, well said.
**2nd ascentionists should write book #2.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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My question is why attack these two ?
The valley was traditionally unkind to "outsiders" back in the day. Particularly ones not climbing like the status quo.
Skinner, Jardine, and the WOS crew. They did it different. Some of their acts are still being condemned while many innovations are not standard practice
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The occasional clannish hostility to outsiders in Yosemite goes back to well before Wings of Steel, certainly to Dihedral Wall in 1962. A lot may have to do with insecurity, that is that "outsiders" would show up and prove themselves every bit as good climbers as those in Yosemite, who promoted themselves and their techniques as leading edge. Some to do with personalities - small groups always have difficulty accepting new members. And a lot to do with adolescent testosterone loaded behaviour.
Ultimately, neither side is right. Right through the 1960s and 1970s, outside climbers appeared in the Valley and did quickly make a mark. Baldwin and Cooper with Dihedral Wall in 1962, Jim Madsen, Kim Schmitz and Mead Hargis in the late 1960s (plus Neil Bennett, Gordie Smaill and that wave of Canadians), then in the early 1970s Charlie Porter, Jimmie Dunn, Steve Sutton, Hugh Burton and other Canadians, and in the later 1970s Eric Weinstein, Daryl Hatten, and Peter Croft. (And others - sorry, easier to remember the Canadians.) Some culturally fitted in, some didn't. Some were poorly treated, usually for specious reasons. (Dihedral Wall may have been a step back in style, given use of fixed ropes, but its steepness, difficulty and lack of ledges justified it. Likewise WoS seems sui generis, and the fact that it's unrepeated after 30 years, and inspires respect in those few with actual knowledge of the route and its difficulty, speaks for itself.) Most were as competent as the "natives".
There's also some possessive, territorial behaviour underneath it all.
I doubt that WoS will ever be popular, whatever may actually have been done (or not) to climb it. It's one of a kind.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Don't overlook Kroger's and Davis' commando plum heist. They didn't want
to get 'embroiled'.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Wow! Thanks, Annie. If Ammon says that pitch 5 is the Real Deal and is heads up scary, then that has got to be one pretty darn hard pitch indeed! Ammon has climbed some of the hardest routes on El Cap, and climbed some of them in a push. So if he says it's hard...
Dang. Sweaty hands again. Could the fifth pitch be harder than the first two? Or as hard?
It's especially great to see Kait's family responding! Welcome aboard, Tarz! Grab your vine and swing on up there, dude - us Cubical Pukes are dying for some pix! And we still await the arrival on this thread of that reprobate pirate first mate, Gabe.
Fatty, you are right. Caesar Maestri was more maligned than Richard and Mark. However it would appear that he deserved it, because all evidence indicates he did knott reach the summit of Cerro Torre - ever - but that he lied and said he did. Here on Wings of Steel, the more hard evidence that comes to light, the more corroboration we have that Mark and Richard didn't lie about anything.
Vindication is a journey not a destination, but we are making significant inroads here now.
Thank you for your kind comments, and especially your thoughtful input and analysis. I never thought of myself as an historian, philospher or psychologist, but this whole Wings of Steel story captivates me like none other. I need to do some more writing.
I love to root for the underdog, the maligned, and the downtrodden. I like to see the truth revealed as best as possible as objectively as possible. I like to see the goat horns chopped, and I especially love to see credibility restored where previously stolen.
Someone get up there with a damn camera, will ya?! This is history in the making. Randy, where the heck are you? Tarz, can you get there any sooner? Nanook - throw the kid in your backpack and take a run down there! Bullwinkle - you've got a camera, don't you?
Go go Ammon and Kait!
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. Studly, I have indeed spent more time on the side of El Cap than anyone - 463 nights not counting base and summit bivis. I've done more routes than Chris Mac [43 different ones] although he has made more ascents of El Cap than me. Ammon has climbed over 50 different routes, everything from single day pushes on hard and dangerous nailups to multi-day big wall camping expeditions, which is more along my style. Erik E. and Steve Gerberding remain out front, both of them pushing sixty different routes. All three of those guys are moving targets, but I remain tenacious ... for a Big Wall Parvenu. And speaking of upstarts, Nanook and Steve Schneider are nippin' at me 'eels knocking on around forty different routes.
P.P.S. Annie - please ask if they have seen any signs of enhanced or chipped placements, or any holes. Have they replaced any more of the existing fixed anchors like we did on the first two pitches, or just gone for it with the existing bolts and Z-mac rivets from the first ascent party? Also, any more whippers [falls], and if so how many and how long? Thanks again for your reports!
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hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
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I can say this - Ammon's screaming up there is IN-tense. We were up doing some climbing in that zone on Wednesday. Knarly.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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It must be all the A3. He never screams on A2.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Where'd Mimi go?
This thread needs conflict.
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
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The best WoS question that I was just reminded about was from Russ.
Something along the lines of....
If you were required to micro enhance, then is the SA required to also do this? If so, how are they supposed to know where to do this?
Prod.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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The repeatability question seems to be put to rest. Ammon has found a way to hook with what's there, be it natural or micro-enhanced, it all looks the same - desperate.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Mighty...
The occasional clannish hostility to outsiders in Yosemite goes back to well before Wings of Steel
I remember more than once Mark Klemens being VERY direct in his approach to outsiders. Makes pooping on ropes seem tame.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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JB: Is it cheating to wear shoes with 5.10 rubber while hooking less than 90 degrees?
I've long felt that the 'natural' progression of dry tooling/mixed climbing would be to use ice tools and rock shoes, in summer. Imagine really sharp tools - probably with leashes, but bring a file - combined with sticky rubber, say on WoS.
And a few ascents with ice tools would quickly put to bed arguments about hypothetical or real enhancements. Perhaps it would also be possible to have an ice farming operation, dribbling water onto the slab from above, for those who want the winter experience.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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If Ammon comes down and says this was harder than Jolly Roger, will MIMI divorce Steve and try and hook up with Richard? I mean obviously she'll be too old and uncool to get Ammon.
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Mimi
climber
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prod, I pointed this out earlier as Russ did. Ammon's screaming up there is not a surprise. He isn't drilling his placements as he goes. Unlike the FA. I hope he knows to reach for a narrow Logan. And I hope he hasn't dropped his drill sharpening stones. LOL!
It's funny that so many of you so readily accept that the FA basically enhanced the entire great slab. Way to go guys. Such high standards. The official wos tally has 145 narrow Leeper Logan hook placements. How many of these do you think were created with a drill or a chisel on that area of El Cap? How many of you comprehend this simple question? Or do you think these guys having nearly zero hooking experience were so talented to pull this off clean? There were several eyewitness accounts at the base that heard the constant tapping during their amazing 39 days on the wall.
The sound of constant tapping also followed these guys up their next two El Cap disasters; Ring of Fire and Winds of Change. They were reported to the rangers for Ring of Fire by other climbers on either side on the wall demanding that they be made to stop. If you bother to read their accounts, they denounce these routes and continue to hold wos up as their proudest accomplishment. If they were so good, why did they admittedly butcher the next two FAs that they put up? And all the while, they used the Bridwell standard as their MO. If it was okay for him to do it, it's okay for us.
That's all that's missing from ending this controversy once and for all. Bwana just needs to come clean. But he won't. He's a victim of terminal false pride. And obfuscation. But such is the reign of the Philosopher-King Richard of Hindsight. And his trusty steed.
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