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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 12, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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well, if some of the uber-posters let up, it would be far less
people should ask more questions and make less statements - no?
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Ian Westmoreland
climber
Jackson
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Jan 12, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
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Ian Westmorland knows a little about fixing sprinklers, but not much else.
Indeed, man who hides behind an alias. I have nothing to hide or prove here.
I have said my piece, and from my own experience plus research have mostly made up my mind about the Wolfrom's story. I will leave you all to trolling, judging those with opinions or facts, and just having your chat.
Cheers
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Jan 13, 2013 - 02:37am PT
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mechrist: If you get beat up and your sh#t stolen when TRAVELING IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY, there is nobody to blame but yourself.
STAY THE FUK HOME if you don't know what you are getting into and can't deal with the consequences.
A bit harsh I think. Regardless of how much one prepares, sh#t can go south in any number of ways just about anywhere one travels, even right here in the good ol' US of A. Aside from locking yourself in your home you're not in control of all circumstances you encounter. And even that has the potential to get all hinky circumstances depending.
Riley: As opposed to the unconfirmed gossip that slandered an entire country and was used to collect 25000 dollars...lol
Yes - we should only be exposed to unconfirmed American accounts and narratives that fit well into your small wanker view of the world....
As John M pointed out, it's not gossip if you're telling what happened to yourself. You don't have to believe it, obviously, but it's not gossip. I'm not sure that it was directed at me but since you were replying to my statement I'll at least say that my world view is neither "small" nor "wanker"ish. In fact, my world view is large enough to accept that I neither understand nor know everything. I read the initial statement which is obviously one sided and understood then that, yes, these guys made some mistakes, both in judgment and action, that initiated their ordeal.
Riley: As far as the stupid bitch sister and hostility- I will give ya that one..
Ok. So why the hostility? Why the rush to judgment? I understand and appreciate the need to make a quick analysis and judgment to act and move forward in life and death situations in your profession. But this isn't anywhere near the same situation. Your analysis isn't going to save anyone's life today here on the Supertaco so why the rush?
Instead of waiting for more information you (and others) start with your conjecture of DUI's and drug use or smuggling or any other asinine BS that fits your small world picture, going so far as to pasting comments and opinions from around the blogosphere, which in themselves are nothing but opinion and conjecture, to support your already biased views.
These three screwed up and got the piss beat out of them. One of them told the story which was since posted by a family member or friend online and went viral. Much money has been sent and some has been apparently withdrawn. Root canals. Dumb asses. Frauds. I say we lynch them.
toadgas: are these flakey US tourists and 30 shitheaded villagers really worth 817 posts?
No. This has long since become more about the reactions/opinions of others engendered by "these flakey US tourists and 30 shitheaded villagers".
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 01:15am PT
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I got angry when tradmanclimbs suggested on my (OT) Who has room for a Dog? thread that we cared more about dogs than humans attacked in Peru...
First of all no one is asking for money on my thread. The dog even has all it's vet bills covered. It is homeless and need of a home that will give it a whole lot of patience and love. If it doesn't get off the streets soon it will wind up dead or even worse, at a kill shelter that in his present condition the dog will be on the un-adoptable list so he'll gets fast tracked to Death.
These folks want their stolen stuff replaced, their car repaired, compensation for lost wages, some teeth fixed and flights home... First of all, they saved enough for a fancy off road camper, had it "shipped" and took months off for this trip. If they can do that, they can save up to get this done on their own. So correct me if I am wrong, they took a trip, understood that bad stuff can happen and wham... Bad stuff did happen and they didn't have a backup plan? Seriously... If someone wants to help them great... But they are safe and just want an easier ride so they won't be economically impacted. Fine... Not essential, but if someone want to give them a hand, heck... Let them.
I do not care less for people than dogs... If they were facing death, needed money to bribe someone to get out of trouble. Yeah, I would pitch in. For lost stuff and teeth work... Yeah, you can figure it out, you don't need my money when your own will work. This might slow your spending down for a few years but heck... I had to for my stuff, we all get a negative shake once in a while.
As for the dog, it's not on the same playing field. Not even close so don't compare what is happening on that thread to this.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:07am PT
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I've met some horrible crazy dogs and I've met some really horrible crazy people.
Both types need to get off this planet.
As for really great people and dogs, yeah... I'll do tons to keep them around. They are the jewels that make their friends and family wealthy.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:20am PT
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So correct me if I am wrong, they took a trip, understood that bad stuff can happen and wham... Bad stuff did happen and they didn't have a backup plan? Seriously...
Anastasia, have you forgotten that when "bad stuff" happened to you and people dear to you on a road trip and there were medical expenses, you "gave the go-ahead" for a fundraiser, one that ended up being as controversial as the one for the three in Peru? Do I really need to remind you of that?
If someone had asked snarky questions at the time about why the people in your group didn't have a better "backup plan" I think you would have agreed that it was over-the-top rude. So why you don't think that now, I don't know.
I am surprised you posted that.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:49am PT
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Oh sweet Christ Granite.....
AF, Bachar and Steve weren't on a "road trip" They were driving back to Mammoth from a trade show in SLC and got into a horrific one car accident that left Steve dead, Bachar seriously injured and Anastasia has documented her physical and emotional injuries from it.
Are you honestly comparing what happened to Bachar/AF/Steve to what happened to these three bandit camping in a small town in a a third world country during a 9 month road trip and being hostile to locals when questioned to the degree they crashed their rig in a getaway attempt (after pepper spraying said locals) and ended up with some missing teeth, cameras, laptops and great outerwear?
Did Af or Bachar ask for money to replace laptops, cameras, puffy jackets, fix the car, etc? No. It was all monies to help John - one of the most beloved and prominent members of the climbing family - with his extensive recovery.
Not even close bro....
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:54am PT
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...and it was for John Bachar someone everyone KNOWS here who had a broken neck in more than one vertebral. A life threatening and very scary condition. Not for his car that was totaled, not for the computers, our broken glasses or cell phones, or even our flights home. It was not for taking care of Steve's body or my own medical cost or the loss of income. It was for John life threatening, end of the world scary position.
In fact when they released him from Utah, he was in such a fragile condition that a fall could have paralyzed or ended him right there. Only at the specialist over at Cedar Sinai did we realize just how close we were to a super bad deal.
Yeah, I remember it. I remember it well. No, this does not compare. Not even close...
Plus Bachar and I did not ask for help. We simply appreciated and heck yeah I approved since it was needed and it did help him greatly.
Yeah, you just really pissed me off.
P.S. I am now going to go hug my dog and... Locker has a point. Sometimes dogs are better than some folks.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:00am PT
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I think it's really stupid to try to compare accidents, attacks or whatever and try to maximize one while minimizing another. But much of what you suggest about the necessity of the funds raised were discussed here.http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=269833&tn=0&mr=0 and http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=269556&msg=271841#msg271841 So if you are going to start making comparisons you might want to read that first.
I followed those threads at the time, but you didn't see me on those threads begrudging the funds that were raised or how some of them were ultimately used.
Also if you think that they asked for money to replace their puffy jackets, you haven't been paying attention. A friend in the U.S. started the fundraiser without asking them.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:08am PT
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Another thing GC about the Wolfroms vs. AF/Bachar/Steve
No one in their party died, no one in their party was left with life threatening injuries that would need constant and vigilant medical attention and rehabilitation.
Just some dental work and stitch repair. Which if they had any sense they'd have used the $25K to get back to the US to get worked on. Instead, they're staying in Cuzco so they can get their rig back and continue their trip and poor Jed had an alleged 6 root canals before they could replace 4 teeth according to his wife. What The Fu...!!!! It's on their posts. Who is willing to undergo 6 root canals in a medium sized city in a third world country to replace 4 teeth then sit around and wait for said teeth?
That makes NO SENSE. They could be home by now under the care of Jackson dentists and local docs for their alleged stitch removals (again, we've yet to see a single picture of any of the injuries).
Don't even think about comparing AF's situation and the plight of the Palcca three. Not even close in any sense.
And sorry GC, Jenny posted her list and gave permission for it to go out on the worldwide web to friends on their website. And the Wolfroms have been taking solicitations for their entire journey and are thanking everyone for continuing to giving more $$ to them during this trying time for them. They solicited money for what happened to them in their nightmare in Peru post, I can go back and dig it up for you if you don't remember it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:20am PT
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You are mischaracterizing both what happened in the John Bachar fundraiser and also the Wolfrom fundraiser. Please read the threads, so you don't repeat misrepresentations that were made in the course of the John Bachar fundraiser (not by John but by people supporting the fundraiser). Some people felt defrauded afterwards, and I understand why.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:26am PT
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Don't argue with him Fluoride... I think what needed to be said has been written. We now can simply stand by our words and let him spew.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:28am PT
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Really? How? Explain it to me in detail GC. Cause there's not even a close correlation between the two incidents.
Was John down in a third world country camped and drinking on private property when locals came and asked him for ID, he refused, was combative, got into a heated argument in a native language he couldn't have understood, then tried to drive his rig away while AF pepper sprayed those trying to stop them? Then as they tried to plow through those stopping them they wrecked their rig as a result and got some cuts and dental problems? Then begged for money online to the tune of receiving $25K to help him replace material belongings, the first one being buying a new laptop after said incident? And continue on his trip throughout SA?
No....that does not sound in any way like the Bachar crash to me.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:37am PT
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Fluoride you spoke up very well. Those are some awesome points I could not figure out to say myself.
He is just indirectly attacking me because I don't agree with him. Yes, using the Bachar incident to get a rise from us is in bad form. Yet it sadly is working.
Don't feed his need for drama. No matter what we say he is right. No matter how much proof you give him that the world is round, he will insist it is flat. He is that type.
Thank You for speaking so beautifully.
Anastasia
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 14, 2013 - 03:40am PT
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Fluoride, I think that we're being delusional if we don't agree that big mistakes were made in BOTH cases. If you think that in one case all of the victims deserved everything that happened to them in one case but were all completely blameless in the other case, then you need to do some more research or rethink your logic. You can start with the Supertaco threads I linked to.
Also, in each case there three people and only one driver, and I don't think you should assume that a vote was taken and that everyone was in agreement.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 04:14am PT
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"Fluoride, I think that we're being delusional if we don't agree that big mistakes were made in BOTH cases."
John fell asleep at the wheel of a car en route home from working a trade show in the US with 2 people close to him. Someone died, he was seriously injured, AFS has said her peace on the incident here.
And then there's the Wolfrom's.....
Same thing? Not even close.
"I don't think you should assume that a vote was taken and that everyone was in agreement."
Good God, do you not have an ounce of common sense? Are you high??? That makes no sense in comparison AT ALL.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 04:44am PT
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It never ceases to amaze me the truely thoughtless things people will say. Wasting time on them is futile. Take a breath, step back, and allow them to lynch themselves.
I care more about my dogs than those Dumb asses in Peru.
Same here about my cats!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 14, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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they wrecked their rig as a result and got some cuts and dental problems
You left out the part where they were chased down, stoned, kidnapped, beat and whipped and threatened with death. Not just the driver, but also the two women who happened to be in the truck?
Where did you work as a reporter again? Fox News? You didn't think that was important?
Didn't your own run-in with authorities end with you in injured and in a drunk tank? Didn't the authorities state that you were intoxicated and uncooperative, and whatever injuries you suffered you caused yourself? I would have thought you would be more understanding, or at least a little less judgmental.
one of my best friends
That's what this is about isn't it? We won't stand for criticism of ourselves, our good friends or our personal heroes, especially if they are climbers. If they are world-class athletes, that's even better. Any mistakes should be overlooked and forgiven. Because they're awesome!
But people we don't know who aren't climbers, or who we ignorantly dismiss as not being climbers--if they make mistakes or we think we made mistakes, they suck, and while we're at it we'll just call them liars, without needing any real evidence. We'll just fabricate and twist the facts in the worst possible light. The driver--he sucks! His wife and sister? They're in the same car with him so they suck also. The people who believe them and supported them--they all suck! They need help? LOL - should have had a back up plan! While we're at it, let's post up that they suck so bad that helping a dog should be a higher priority then helping them. Because they suck.
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