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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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If his party dies, so does yours person-who-calls-his-fellow-Americans-winguts. It takes 2 parties to have a democracy. Why are you doing your part to tear America apart?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
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I bet 50 regular users here know my name. I like to speak freely because when you get a job nowadays, your web presence follows you around.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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How much more suicide prevention for them do you suggest we do?
It seems like you are doing everything for everyone. But it only seems that way. I'm sure you don't do much for anyone.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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It takes 2 parties to have a democracy.
hahahaaaaa... 2.... ahahaaaaa... you fell for it!!!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
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Don't laugh at your 2-party system! Sure, Canada may have more choices and parties than you, my vote in Canada is 1:1 million, whereas yours is 1:10million, but it is all you have!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/28/us-military-heart-idUSBRE8BR0I220121228
"Webber said the findings also show that although the U.S. has made progress in lowering the nationwide prevalence of heart disease, there's more work that can be done to encourage people to adopt a healthy lifestyle and reduce their risks.
Heart disease accounts for about one in four deaths - or about 600,000 Americans each year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." They can change a nation's largest killer without federal laws - ok perhaps labeling laws - because they do it through education. Dumb people will still eat at McDonalds. McDonalds wasn't outlawed, or only given to cops or restricted to only fries and apple pies.
We know how people work, we know how to make positive changes in society. We know that isn't what is happening with gun laws - tells me something else is the goal by those in charge.
I agree that fewer guns around will mean restricted access for criminals, but why play games when there are so many examples to make real change in your society - to take the problem seriously? so far all that has been accomplished is to get tens of thousands of more guns into people's hands - and a couple thousand turned in.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
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Tooth, since you brought up heart disease in a gun thread (as if it was at all related) would you mind taking a moment to consider and answer the following, I'd appreciate it:
Where do the stolen guns used in crimes come from? Seriously... they were manufactured, distributed, and sold legally by someone... somewhere... right? There isn't a secret gun factory somewhere pumping out Glocks with serial numbers scratched off, are there. Set me straight, because I really don't know where guns come from. If you say Mexico, do you mean to say S&W is making and/or selling that many guns in Mexico, even though we KNOW they come into the US illegally? That seems irresponsible.
Maybe if the owner was required to insure them and be held to a higher standard of responsibility before given the right to own something capable of such destruction, they won't get stolen as much... or reported stolen as much? You know, there are still places in the USA where it is ILLEGAL to keep any record of who owns guns. How easy do you think it is to "lose" a few guns that you legally acquired and "find" a few grand? Ron makes it sound pretty easy. You don't think stricter regulations might slow that down a little?
The absurd false equivalence between guns and cars provides an interesting juxtaposition, I think:
We (as a society) agree that EVERYONE who legally operates a VEHICLE MUST take a minimum of 30 hours of DRIVER'S ED and HAVE INSURANCE. We have drunk driver check points in an attempt to protect the innocent from the irresponsible. Safety violations are addressed with fines, classes, and revocation of your license depending on the severity. This undoubtedly keeps us safer while we participate in what many of us unfortunately consider a necessity.
But to own a GUN specifically designed to KILL, and capable of killing dozens of people in a public place in a matter of minutes, you have to wait 10 days and spend about 1hr doing paperwork. There are no serious mental health exams, no periodic renewals with psych evaluations, no insurance, no safety checks, and no penalties for safety violations that potentially threaten the lives of others. That just seems irresponsible and illogical.
I'm not saying we should ban guns... well, maybe the ones capable of killing dozens of innocent people before our responsible CCW citizens can act... I'm just saying we should give the issue some serious thought.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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mechrist,
I agree with a lot of that. I agree that Canada's laws, (which you essentially describe) would reduce 'lost' guns.... let me copy and reply to each of your points....
Where do the stolen guns used in crimes come from? Gun factories from every other nation on earthSeriously... they were manufactured, distributed, and sold legally by someone... somewhere... right? There isn't a secret gun factory somewhere pumping out Glocks with serial numbers scratched off, are there. Set me straight, because I really don't know where guns come from. If you say Mexico, do you mean to say S&W is making and/or selling that many guns in Mexico, even though we KNOW they come into the US illegally? That seems irresponsible.
Maybe if the owner was required to insure them and be held to a higher standard of responsibility before given the right to own something capable of such destruction, they won't get stolen as much... or reported stolen as much? Canada requires everyone to get licensed and then restricted guns to be registered - not farm guns. Just like our town cars have to be licensed, but not the ones we keep around the propertyYou know, there are still places in the USA where it is ILLEGAL to keep any record of who owns guns. How easy do you think it is to "lose" a few guns that you legally acquired and "find" a few grand? Ron makes it sound pretty easy. You don't think stricter regulations might slow that down a little?It is easy for anyone to 'lose' anything they own if they want the money. That is human nature and laws can't change human nature
The absurd false equivalence between guns and cars provides an interesting juxtaposition, I think:
We (as a society) agree that EVERYONE who legally operates a VEHICLE MUST take a minimum of 30 hours of DRIVER'S ED and HAVE INSURANCE.I got licensed in 2 states and 2 provinces without that We have drunk driver check points in an attempt to protect the innocent from the irresponsible. Safety violations are addressed with fines, classes, and revocation of your license depending on the severity. This undoubtedly keeps us safer while we participate in what many of us unfortunately consider a necessity.
But to own a GUN specifically designed to KILL, and capable of killing dozens of people in a public place in a matter of minutes, you have to wait 10 days and spend about 1hr doing paperwork. I can pick one up here in Canada with no wait - they do the paperwork on -line for a gun while I payThere are no serious mental health exams, no periodic renewals with psych evaluations, no insurance, no safety checks, and no penalties for safety violations that potentially threaten the lives of others. That just seems irresponsible and illogical.Well, in Canada there is all that to get your driver's license or gun license. It varies from state-to-state in the US
I'm not saying we should ban guns... well, maybe the ones capable of killing dozens of innocent people before our responsible CCW citizens can act... I'm just saying we should give the issue some serious thought.We have had that since the 30's here in Canada. It has shaped our society to where my hunting guns have the same firepower as the guys in the shootouts in town between Hell's Angels and the other biker gang. So you are describing Canada just now. But the US isn't Canada and you can't turn a country 10 times the size of Canada, or even the State of California with a bigger population than Canada INTO Canada with laws. It sure would be nice though eh? If you think you can - go ahead. By all means, vote for it or do whatever you do to make changes in your society. I'm just looking at it from the outside wondering why you want to make changes in a way that has been ineffective in your society when you have methods of creating change that are effective. This isn't waving a magic wand and voila, you have change! This is applying it to your society. Who would have thought that the president who has relaxed gun laws a lot would have sold more guns than ever? Or that one shooting could have doubled the price of ammo in Canada? Or that one terrorist attack could have changed America so much? Laws were not the catalysts of change in these situations, people didn't vote for the kind of change that has been happening in the US. Why not realize how change really works in your country and use it to your advantage to decrease your gun crime rates instead of fighting for the ineffective things the media is telling you to do?
So I guess why I am bringing up both cars and heart disease - seemingly unrelated issues in a gun thread is that what I'm getting at, and I think what a lot of people want to see, is a change in your society. There are ways that your society can and has changed, and ways that haven't been effective. Simply put, why not use proven methods in your own society to make positive changes? You don't see fat people getting all up in arms about how they lowered heart disease and the push for healthier living - you didn't make federal laws against BMI's over 25, you just emphasized health and education and the positives - with a lot starting with kids. I know that as a kid my parents couldn't tell me NOT to do something, but if they kept me busy doing productive things, I wouldn't do those destructive things. It is human nature, we know how it works, we should use it!
What the gun law advocates are going for it making it slightly harder for new criminals to get new guns in the future. It doesn't do anything for the portion of the existing 310,000,000 people that already have guns and will have bad intentions in the future. Like saying we will address heart disease by writing laws to prevent any additional people in the future from eating fatty foods, living lazy lifestyles and getting heart disesase. Sure, it will help. I don't disagree. But it is lame when you look at how change could really be effected.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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Alrighty then. Thanks.
Ron, do you think it is a good idea to allow just about anyone to get a tactical weapon in 30 min and then "lose" it and happen to "find" $6K? What neighborhood do you live in again? Si, habla Espanol!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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I just picked up a VEPR 12. (Piton Ron envy post to follow) Most interesting part of it to me was filling out the goverment form that wanted to know my race. It was mandatory, not voluntary, that I report my race to the government.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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jstan
climber
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
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I bet 50 regular users here know my name. I like to speak freely because when you get a job nowadays, your web presence follows you around.
I think we all have to realize the internet gives us a deeper understanding of each other than was ever before possible. Back when I was working and deciding whom to hire, I really should have been mining the internet. It would have been a gold mine.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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Actually it doesn't take two parties to have a Democracy. The founding fathers never thought there would be two parties.
But if one falls apart it will be replaced.
We could have many more than just two or as few as one. As long as the we are being represented it doesn't matter.
By the by - taking arms against our government is treason.
We have the right of recall & that replaced the right to over through our government.
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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"libs hate the fact that abortion is basically the genocide of the black race...or do they?"
Hahahaha, no wonder you don't have the guts to use your real name
Are you just as much of a coward in real life as well?
there you go acting like a typical liberal
go on the attack when you hate the facts...this is why you people fail at everything.
lets see if you can work romney into your next post!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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you can get a tactical weapon here in about thirty minutes. IF you can find one now. thats wrapped bagged and tagged on the way home.
Hey these folks really are struggling against that tyranny you warn us about.
Can he have a tactical weapon in about thirty minutes?
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Dec 29, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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lol that's the best you can do! you must be a dumb liberal, you aren't even good at arguing on the internet!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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Wow, can't argue with that! Maybe supertopo should put a minimum age limit on members.. (maturity limit?)
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
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Ron can handle himself. I am quite purposely no one's mommy!
Besides, I ain't tangling with a gun nutter. :) Haha!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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I'm sure every soldier (or person confronted with an armed assailant) would love to hear you tell them that!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
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And your chances of being confronted by an armed assailant are infinitely greater because you support arming them in the first place, obviously.
Do you think that the Canadian gun laws which I support support your statement? C'mon, try to think about it...
What about the quarter million girls kidnapped and put into sex trafficking in the US last year? They weren't soldiers. But every single one of them wishes they had some sort of defense, even if it was the probability that they would have had a way to defend themselves. Remember, you are dealing with current reality right now -you aren't building a dreamland from scratch and implementing the rules from the beginning.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
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I'm talking about your situation in the year 2012 in the US. The situation I live in now is different than when I lived in the US, and our society functions better than yours in terms of gun violence. But adopting our laws isn't the same as adopting our way of life. You can't adopt our way of life by way of law. There are effective ways to change your society.
"WHat the HELL!??! Yeah, pretty crazy the stuff going on that nobody talks about eh?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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I'm saying you have big problems. A law here or there isn't going to fix it. Taking guns away will cause more people to be victims in all aspects of society. Arming everyone is another step that will solve some problems and cause a lot of other problems just like limiting them will. You have to look at options that have worked for change in your society besides a pro-or con law , a liberal or conservative side, a repub or democrat choice.
If you are lost, if this is too hard to grasp, and you represent 47% of your society, I'm so sorry!
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