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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
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Rivet Hanger,
ahora eres tu quien peca de xenophobo. antes que nada no soy Americano, y para que quede claro no estoy de acuerdo con lo que hizo Jensen, y si los Fisher fueran mi tierra ya hubiese quitado los parabolts y rivets que el coloco.
My questions seemed valid ones and were very respectful.
I simply want to understand if this "issue" is the result of a significantly different approach to aid climbing ethics between the North American and Spanish communities, or if Pelut is an independent thinker that has invented his own ethic. I think this would be good to know.
so here are my questions again:
 Are "hole counts" not kept during ascents in Villanova, Montrebey, Montserrat and aid climbing routes in general?
Can you use chisel and hammer to enhance placements at wish in those places?
is the concept "if you drill it, fill it" new to Spanish aid climbers?
is the concept that "a hole is a hole is a hole" new to Spanish aid climbers?
This questions are not meant to be critical. I am asking out of curiosity. I have "trad" climbed a fair bit in Spain (Roca Regina, Terradets, Villanoba, Montebei -solo en Aragon-, Puig Campana, Ordesa, Pedriza, Riglos, etc, etc) but have never done any aid climbing.
Obviously wooden wedges are very useful in many kinds of rock. In the Dolomites they have been used since the first pitons were made, and are still very much in use today. I certainly don't argue their value, they are obviously a crucial tool, but my questions are completely unrelated to wooden wedges and their validity.
cheers
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
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Paul, Crusher, Jeremy, etc
I wonder if some of the concepts that you have outlined in this thread (a hole is a hole is a hole, drill-fill, sustainable -repeatable- first ascents, etc) are compiled in some sort of north america aid climbing "manifesto" or "declaration of intent". Does Middendorf have something of the sort in his website? The closest I have come up with are the introductions to Chris Mac's aid books. May be his new book How to Big Wall climb has such a chapter?
A compilation of the current "agreed" or "in use" standards/ethics (what is the right word?) for aid first ascents in NA would make a great lead article in the AAJ. Of course ethics/standards are an evolving thing, so it would not be intended as definitive, nor would it be intended as "the law of tha land" (god forbid), but it might help inform folks like Pelut and might avoid similar problems in the future.
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
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Crusher recently published a great piece about this discussion in this year's AAJ, "Look Out! Danger! A plea for restraint in the Fisher Towers of Utah" (AAJ 2013, pages 82-87).
It is narrower and more targeted than the "AAJ lead article" I had suggested in the post above many months ago, but surely for the better as it addresses very well this discussion.
I wonder if Crusher can ask permission from the editors to post his piece here for everyone to read? Surely very few people in this forum get to read the AAJ.
It would have been interesting for Crusher to get in touch with Spanish aid climbing luminaries such as Adolfo Madinabeitia, Silva Vidal, Pep Masip, Jesus Galvez, etc to know if there is consensus regarding aid climbing ethics in Spain and if so what that is.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Did I mention I love this thread :)
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Hola mi amigos y pero Americanos! El Crusher is not the aid man so his American dog like ways do not know about the A6 and Spanish mens with the grande sac. Do my roots then dribble on with your miedo as I am aid man and you are American dogs and puto sissy mens. Viva Espania!!!!!
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WBraun
climber
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American dog like ways do not know about the A6 and Spanish mens with the grande sac.
I was in Mali Africa and saw up front your "Spanish mens with the grande sac."
A 5.9 crack bolted because you couldn't climb it.
You're a total poseur and sh!t talker.
It won't help you one iota as everyone else can see besides you that you're just plain full of sh!t .....
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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WBraun you stupido americano! You do not listen mi amigo, are you deaf or something? Espanish man has very mucho macho aid sac and free climbing en Mali es no sac. 5.9 is no A6. Mali mens are no sac and Espania aid mans are mucho sac. Comprende mi pero Americano?
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WBraun
climber
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I've been to Spain and hung with the best there.
So you're still full of sh!t pelut ......
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Notreallyanaidclimber -
Good question about ethics ... many areas have their unique ethics, generally "agreed" upon over a period of time by the people who climb there the most and who put up FA's. When I visit a new area I'm rarely putting up FA's on the first trip, and take some time to learn the style and ethics of the area. Most of these are "unwritten", but tomes from Deucy, Chris Mac and others provide some broad based overarching generalizations.
I thought Crusher's article came out well, and took an unbiased approach that presented the facts - as those facts are very visible. I hope everyone that visits the Fisher Towers whether to repeat routes or to climb new routes reads and embraces the area's generally agreed upon styles and ethics, just as I would if I was climbing in Spain, or anywhere else for that matter.
Paul
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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The Fishers are far different from the clean granite of Yosemite. You can take some mud, moisten it in your mouth, and "plug" trenched heads. If you alter the rock in the valley, it is there for all to see for the next 10,000 years or more.
I know that we have all heard the stories regarding Beyer's ethics, and be they true or not, outsiders might come in to repeat his super high ratings, thinking that they are doing the hardest aid routes on the planet.
They see his technique and apply it to new routes, so these things spread to others, particularly those not plugged into the Fisher scene, like Crusher. I've heard that when you do put some moistened mud to cover a trenched alumihead, it is often visible as a patch of lighter colored rock.
There are many fer sure hard routes in the Fishers. What needs to come forth is an understanding that trenching or drilling holes, and then hiding them, in an attempt to befuddle the second ascent parties, is just lame. It needs to be written about in the mags, in an attempt to put this to a stop.
I've discussed this at length with Duane Raleigh, who in his old age is not at all into trenching or drilling. They would do all kinds of crazy stuff, such as tossing ice tools over knobs and jugging up to them in order to pass blank ground. Naked Lunch is supposed to be like that, and very hard.
I've also heard that beneath the mud, the cutler is so hard that you can bend a rurp if you try to pound it into blank rock. You can trench an A1 head into it no problem. When you clean the pitch, you try to cover the trench by moistening some mud and filling it, but as said above, they are still visible.
The mud-covering-hole technique needs to be stopped, and when they are seen, they need to be brought to attention, so that this crap stops.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Base, I am not so stupid as to impugn your knowledge of geology, but how
could any sandstone be hard enough to bend a RURP?
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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how could any sandstone be hard enough to bend a RURP?
For example Eldo sandstone is bullet hard. Pressure and time, grain size probably comes into play, other aspects of the parent material was well.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
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It's not clear whether you repeated their route, failed on their route, created your own route. Perhaps all three. It's a mess.
You sure picked a pile of sh#t upon which to make a statement, eh?
Do I support what Jensen did?
No.
In case you missed it, I wrote in this thread that Richard should have come down after seeing the crap on the first and second pitches. I, in no way, defend his continuation of the line. A line of worthless bolt hangers is just that. A monument to vanity. As is a line with worthless holes.
RJ reminds me a lot of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., seriously.
Ironic how he has taken on the Grossman role for this drama (outsider doesn't conform to the locals and gets his route chopped). If the ropes were still there would he have...? ;)
Sorry, I'll go back to minding my own business, I just thought this thread was funny.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Ironic how he has taken on the Grossman role for this drama (outsider doesn't conform to the locals and gets his route chopped). If the ropes were still there would he have...? ;)
Don't know who you are, but you have posted some amazingly clueless and intentionally offensive "material" recently. You seem to have a hard on for me. Are you a Grossman proxy or fanboy?
It's easy to talk trash when you're anonymous, "Rudder." Care to be as public with your real name as you are with your drive-by shootings?
And, since you seem to have missed it, the route is not "chopped." There never was a route there. All I found was a line of holes: big, deep, blown-out from yanked-out, bomber lead-heads, and drilled on average about 24 inches apart. If we're calling cratered holes every 18 to 24 inches a "route" now, then let me know what's next on the downward spiral. See, I don't think that qualifies as "climbing" or as "putting up a route."
Do you, "Rudder?"
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Huge difference between Grossman never touching Wings of Steel and berating it versus Jensen going up and seeing LOD firsthand and reporting on the tangible things he found.
But it's so much harder to troll with facts do carry on.
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notreallyanaidclimber
Trad climber
CO
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Thanks for your response Paul. You, Crusher and Jeremy have made some very valuable contributions in this discussion and I agree that Crusher's article in the AAJ is very good. I am sure it will be referenced time and time again in the future and it clearly applies to the wider aid climbing scene, not only to the Fisher Towers. Makes sense that Pelut might have been partly inspired to trench and chip after repeating Beyer's Intifada.
The fake Pelut in this forum cracks me up. Nothing like an english speaker that knows a few words of spanish attempting to write in spanglish. He might want to note that dog is written with 2 "r"s: "perro" and not "pero". He is surely having fun with his contributions.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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+1 to fake Pelut poster.
How long before Rivet Hanger posts?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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It is hilariously rich that pseudo-Pelut is far more worth reading than any real-Pelut could be.
And where IS RH? He's long overdue. Of course, he just keeps repeating himself ad nauseum, so pseudo-Pelut is the one really worth reading. lol
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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I'm here aragin, Richy!
First of all I'd like to put the people in two groups: Steve, Paul and Jeremy, among others, who deserve all the respect. And then, someone who doesn't respect the FA and treats the authors with the same hate as we has treated 30 years ago... Really ironic!
I haven't read the Cruscher's AAJ article, I'll do for sure as I read Jensen's book.
I'd like to point out some objective facts:
You keep having wrong prejudices about Catalonia and Europe in general, although you keep absolutely unknowing some techniques widely used in Europe (wood wedges, leadheads, etc...). In a wider sense, sadly, this is the typical attitude of USA in the world, whereas the world tries to improve looking at what's new in the States, a lot of Americans not even try to understand and keep the cliché (which is easier than trying to understand a thing).
Silvia Vidal, Pep Masip and Pelut know each other and sometimes they even do climb together as they all are Catalans and ours is a little country... And I guess that maybe Medinabeitia and almost for sure Jesús Gálvez come often to climb to Catalonia. The aid climbing ethincs in Catalonia, Spain and Europe are widely agreed, and I guess you won't find any difference in their opinion (it's very funny to think that Pelut inspired himself when he repeated Intifada; drilled holes and other tricks are older than aid climbing itself, and the ethics about that is really clear in Europe). But what you will find there is a thing called respect. Respect for other's routes. As Crusher did on Hot parad'ice, you can repeat a route and give your opinion, which can be excellent or really bad, time puts the things in the right place, but I make sure there is a big consensus in the Spanish aid climbing community about what Jensen did on the Titan...
Pelut and Ester have repeted some of the most difficult routes in the Fishers (doesn't mind if they are rated A4, A5 or A6). Intifada or Weird Science are good examples of that. I think we'll agree that not everybody can face those climbs. In the same way, they've done and keep doing SA of hard aid routes in Spain, even in winter. And they've put new routes on the Fishers in addition of Spain.
Talking about Oju peligru! all your reference is Jensen's ascent. Needless to talk about Wings of Steel and all the opinions it created, but as an objective fact, from the original A5 rating, McNeely purposes A3+, and as far as I know, a hook is a hook now and 30 years before... And as far as I know, a bathook and a bathead is the same in the Fishers that in Yosemite, a thing not so obvious to Jensen since he justifies his new route under the pretext of drilled holes (although he finds wood wedges and doesn't know wtf they are).
In addition, he was there absolutely alone, and if the locals prefer a bolt ladder instead of a supposed A6+ because Pelut is a foreigner, I think everything is clear. Because for me that's the drama, the almost absolute lack of criticism on what Richy did there alone... For a rational person, the criticism should include both Pelut and Jensen.
And about the distance between the gear, I do not see a significant difference between how Jeremy Aslaksen places his gear in an A4 pitch (weird science) and how Pelut does in an A4 pitch (Hot parad'ice)...
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