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Gene
climber
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Can you delete after the 10 day statute of limitations?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Like for bloody murder itself, the statute of limitations on flaming never runs out.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Mimi
climber
Jul 2, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
No plans for that, Joe. Contrary to earlier statements, Steve never planned on getting on the route. We did discuss climbing Horse Chute and taking a look and recording any evidence and then rapping and chopping it along the way. But then I scored this really good job and those plans fell through. Oh, and for the record, you are one of the lovers. You are one of the lovers, healy. You are one of the lovers, healy.
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 25, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
Certainly do and I choose to spend some of my energy here on the ST doing all sorts of posting. These guys bellowing for an apoogy is one of the reasons that I showed up here, nkay?
If any of you folks can't stand the tone, content or direction of my comments then just ignore the thread in question and peruse something else.
These guys really like the attention when all is said and done and only choose to participate on this forum when their routes are the subject of discussion.
A couple days climbing up and down and I will be quite content with the situation.
Matt- What are you doing next spring?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Nov 25, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
Holy frig, Steve! Are you looking for a belayer for Wings of Steel???!!!!
ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111
I'll be there with f*#kin' BELLS ON, dude, to belay you up Wings of Steel!!! Dude, I'll bring the biggest longest baddest-ass camera lens you've ever seen, and I'll record every millimetric move you make!! It'll be awesome, man! I'll get Kate and her Blackberry, and we'll upload live to McTopo and everyone can watch!!!
BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 25, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
You'll have your answer next spring on the enhancements unless I find something better to do.
Almost the entire Downward Spiral thread went without a response from you or Mark and quite frankly screw you and your dismissive little statement of petulance. It didn't work on Mimi and won't accomplish anything on this Forum.
I don't really give a rat's ass on a cold day whether you choose to respond to anything that I say or question that I ask. That is entirely up to you, as always.
As Matt duly noted, you guys leave the conversation whenever your position or support for it begins to wane. No different here when you feel that you are on a high note and would like to end the controversy that follows your climbing career around like a nasty fart. Ignoble fate for you but entirely warranted.
Stay away if you can but you guys haven't gained a shred of respect in my eyes as a historian. None of your efforts on El Cap measure up to squat. Back to the shadows with you...
Cheers
Pete- I don't even care to meet you much less climb anything in your company. You missed your chance last season. That was Mimi and I on the Footstool while you carried on about "the last steep thing on El Cap that you hadn't done" once you determined that she was a girl. Dream on...
Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 17, 2010 - 05:47am PT
HEy Steve,
Didn't you say something about heading up WoS this spring? Sure would like to hear how those plans are evolving.
Prod.
Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2010 - 10:37am PT
Nov 26, 2009 SG quote.
No substitute for direct examination and that is my intention. The matter will be settled as a result. What could be better?!?
Prod.
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 2, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
He was pretty adamant about it. I'd like to see him back up his words.
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 2, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
Help yourself Matty!
The matter should be resolved this Fall.
Jeremy
Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
May 19, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
That's cuz Grossman is being a pussy. Put up or shut up. God knows he could do it...
I would go do it but I have to redpoint Nutcracker first.
I'll be out there in October so maybe I can fit it in.
Jeremy
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
May 19, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
Sh#t, guys.
You seen a picture of Grossman recently?
Remember Samson? (Man of the Sun?)
You is asking a lot. Time has flown, and its pretty close to twilight for those of us that actually remember this sh#t.
couchmaster
climber
pdx
Jul 4, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
$200 I offered to see Mimi and Steve Grossman do this? I MUST have been drinking. I would have been good for it then but that had a 1 year expiration date. If Ammon and Kaite (who are on it now) do it I'm good for a 40 ozer and I'll send Fish $2.00 via paypal for a beer just because. He can sh#t on their ropes if he wants to recreate the flavor of the original if he thinks it will help anyone.
BTW, Grossmans routes were amazing and his posts here are all fantastic, with the exception of his bitching on the WOS carp. Big respect still to the man. I'd like to see him confront this demon yet, wish he was up with Ammon and kaite for that reason.
Take care all
freerider
Trad climber
innsbrooklyn
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 24, 2010 - 07:04am PT
If so, who was it? I read SG was going to get on it this fall? How did it go?
I looked at Winds of Change from the Aquarian Wall, and that looked really sketchy! Anyone tried to repeat that?
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 24, 2010 - 10:14am PT
Inspection rescheduled for next spring...
RURPS
climber
Where's the Choss?
Dec 24, 2010 - 10:45am PT
MAMS!!@!#!
YOur nOT DoiNG ANYTHING on Z Captian Nexzt SPRING~!@!#!
WAY TOO OLD, + MIMErs Is ur ONLY petner!!!
YOu iz Scared to FAIL due to INCONtenace.
Bring z Diapers et azzwhipes!!@#!@
RURPS
Aleister Crowley
Trad climber
Dec 24, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
God Willing, we Crowley's will bag WOSll before the Grossbergs. Amen
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jan 1, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
I'm belaying Grossman, and calling him names, for which I get a hundred bucks.
Note: With today's exchange rate, please make it one hundred CANADIAN dollars! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!
Steve Grossman is a lame-ass has-been pussy with a big mouth and even smaller balls. I'll kiss his ass if he manages to lead even the first pitch, which I thought was desperate, and hugely beyond my ability.
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
Jan 3, 2011 - 03:24am PT
LOL! Just a question: If the route really has had people all over it, including to the top of the slab, as SG claims, then what can anybody hope to find out about any supposed "enhancements" WE did, lo these many ascents and almost three decades later?
The best argument SG could have made would have been to claim that NOBODY had been on the route but us, and then he cleanly and quickly bags the SA, and then he documents hundreds of straight-in enhancements. Sadly for him, none of that's gonna work. Hehe
Dozens of people have been on the initial pitches, probably half a dozen have been to the top of pitch five, and there's many rumors of at least one person getting to the top of the slab. SG isn't going to bag the route quickly and cleanly. And any "enhancements" he finds aren't ours (see our many statements and the first paragraph of this post).
This is pure hilarity for me at this point. That he should even care after so long, that he should think there is anything he can "prove" by the ascent, and that somehow he has gotten himself baiting into a "SA" that really isn't (if his claims are correct) and on which he has nothing to gain and quite a bit to lose. Go, SG, GO!
Prediction: SG takes falls on pitch one, claims that the route is unrepeatable without additional drilling of the sort he CLAIMS we did (but cannot substantiate, and that we deny), then bails with the haughty statement that such a contrived heap isn't worth the time of a serious climber such as himself anyway. Oh, wait, he's already made all those claims. All we're waiting on now are the inevitable falls and grandiose bail.
Go, SG, GOOOOO!!!
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 3, 2011 - 09:05am PT
Much more like obfuscation meets vagary but that's why I have to inspect the route again to see for myself.
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yo
climber
Mudcat Spire
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Ammon up: Wings of Steel
Ammon down: Wings of Nylon
(suck it Mtucker)
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WBraun
climber
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Ammon is god ......
And Kate is princess .....
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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First post of this thread, cut and paste while it's still here.
Gunkie
Topic Author's Original Post - May 17, 2005 - 10:43am PT
Has Wings of Steel ever seen a repeat?
The only reason I'm asking is because I was looking at the recent valley flooding images on the internet and ran into Chris Falkenstein's web site (www.yosemitestock.com) and saw a pretty interesting shot of a team low on Wings of Steel. Are not the lower pitches of Wings of Steel the crux pitches anyway?
Just curious.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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not fer nothin'-
but the FA team ought to be GRATEFUL to those (many) who have so loudly criticized them!
does anyone really believe anyone would have bothered hooking up a slab for the 2nd, absent all the controversy?
the legacy of a route in an area like YV is as much about those who will follow as it about the FA.
so finally there will now be a second-
the really interesting question is less about whether Ammon and Kait can visually identify 30yr old micro-enhancements to hook placements and more about whether anything they'll have to say about the climb is in any way inspiring to a potential 3rd or a 4th ascent team.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Exactly matt and that's the point I made a year ago out here. I don't care how hard it is... if it was great climbing people would be on it. What I said was that if no one ever seconded it I didn't think there was any classic great climbing being missed out on. Just a hunch. :)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The whole discussion, and the SA at this point I would guess, is about verifying the reality of the route versus all the bullshit that's been laid down since - not climbing a classic.
Also, I know from my perspective I couldn't care less if anyone climbs my FAs. I don't know about you, but don't climb for other people, so don't care if anyone else ever sees what I saw in any given line I put up.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2011 - 07:50am PT
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First post of this thread, cut and paste while it's still here.
No worries. I'm not about to delete this thread nor the first post... seriously. I may have been bored or had a cocktail last evening.
I am also following Ammon & Kait (Edit: as per PTPP's info) vicariously from 3000 miles away. You guys rock! And if anyone has the technology to take a few game photos, please post up!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Healyjoe, the only first ascent that I know about you have done except for the FarSide choss, you named Menopause.....nobody does it because who the hell would want to do a climb with that name, plus it looks like a pile. Put on your Depends and take your Geritol. Now Wings of Steel, that has a nice ring to it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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the really interesting question is less about whether Ammon and Kait can visually identify 30yr old micro-enhancements to hook placements and more about whether anything they'll have to say about the climb is in any way inspiring to a potential 3rd or a 4th ascent team.
If they can't, or even have trouble identifying micro-enhancements, maybe they don't mean squat. Cause I can sure tell where people pound pins, place heads, garden and do everything else that we accept on virtually every El Cap Climb. What's the alternative to a micro-enhaned hook? Rivet? in the past- bathook.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Healyjoe, the only first ascent that I know about you have done except for the FarSide choss, you named Menopause.....nobody does it because who the hell would want to do a climb with that name, plus it looks like a pile. Put on your Depends and take your Geritol. Now Wings of Steel, that has a nice ring to it.
I didn't name it, it ain't an FA yet given it steps out over 7-8 roofs, and yeah you don't know about my FAs - and what would be the point anyway given you couldn't lead them? But really, do try and keep your forums straight.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I couldn't lead them? Do you know something I don't Joe? Did you pull on slings or something? Maybe we should take your challenge to Beacon when it opens and see what we can see, your secrect routes that no one can do. For a guy who doesn't crack climb, thats quite a throwdown you just made. But probably this Forum not the applicable place for a shootout, as Wings of Steel defintely eclipes any of our local climbing. Bring it on over at Cascade Climbers, ALL you can handle bro..!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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...that's quite a throwdown you just made
Not really - but I can't think of a more appropriate thread for a spinoff throwdown. Oh, and just so we're clear, no dogging or pulling on gear of any kind has ever happened on an FA of mine. And nothing secret about the routes, you walk under them every time you walk down to go climb at Beacon - all you have to do is look up as you walk under the roofs (granted, most people don't).
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Just so you guys know, Ammon's partner's name is Kait Barber, and it's spelled thus. She is a sweetie and so is her mom [apparently our only live reporter!], but there is only one Princess of the El Cap Bridge. ;)
When I saw Ammon recently, I asked him about enhancements - any enhancements, micro or otherwise - on the first few pitches he had climbed, and he told me he couldn't see any. I couldn't see any, either, when I was up there a few years ago, and I was specifically looking for them. It would appear that Mark and Richard did a very precise job in their enhancing/cheating/creating, and did it precisely as explained in the "WoS Confessions" post here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963934&tn=0&mr=0
I doubt Ammon will report "great" climbing, but I know he will report hard climbing. The absence of a complete second ascent appears to be mostly a function of how difficult the climbing is, and how "samey" the climbing is with long hard runouts and multiple falls required to piece together the hooking sequence.
I really loved Hummermachine's selections of previous posts, and laughed out loud at some of the stuff I and others wrote! The whole Wings of Steel story - right from the beginning - has been amazingly captivating to me. I think I might try to write up something of a recap - it's been interesting how many myths have so far been debunked, yet how many continue to remain. The personalities are so powerful, along with the stands that certain individuals have taken [rigid, unyielding] while others' minds have appeared more open.
But I think at the heart of the matter - and the reason Wings of Steel is so fascinating to all of us - is not necessarily the climb itself, but rather the way Mark Smith and Richard Jensen have been treated over the years, and the slow but gradual realization that perhaps they are not the villains they were once made out to be.
When someone puts up a first ascent on El Cap, the route gets repeated, and on this particular crag, pretty much every route is good - El Cap climbing is really that superb. You don't hear people say "such and such a route on El Cap is crap". In fact, I've never heard that said. I can tell you I disliked NA Wall because of its traversing or SOH because of its chimneys, but it doesn't mean I'm dissing the routes. There are plenty of people here who believe those are two of the finest routes on El Cap, even though they are among my least favourites.
So first ascensionists come and put up a route, and then go on their way, and for the most part, the route they put up is a small portion of their lives. It's something on their resume. But Wings of Steel was far far more than that for Mark and Richard - it very much became a DEFINING point in their lives. Not THE defining moment, because by all accounts they lead rich lives with loving families and successful careers, but certainly a very significant moment.
And this significance was not of their own seeking. What happened to Richard Jensen and Mark Smith was arguably the most vicious character assault in the history of climbing! It began on the wall with the chopping of their route and the sh|tting upon of their ropes, continued with open hostility from some of the "in crowd" of Valley Locals, went on to include snide guidebook entries and libellous big wall textbook references, and extends into internet forums to this day. I'm surprised they never got beat up.
Has there ever been a climber who was so maligned as Mark and Richard? Has any other climber ever been assaulted with the unending libel and slander that Mark and Richard have had to endure? I'm trying hard to think of someone, but nobody comes to mind. [Help me out here, eh?] And the attacks weren't confined merely to the route, but rather to the identities, characters, and credibility of the first ascensionists themselves. It was something that followed them around wherever they went, especially within the climbing community and to a lesser degree outside of it too, and had far reaching implications in their lives beyond El Capitan.
Since climbing Wings of Steel, Mark and Richard spent a quarter-century trying to simply be understood, and were pretty much shut down on all fronts. They wrote magazine articles, which were either rejected, disbelieved, or unnoticed. They wrote a book, but their detractors accused them of seeking fame or adulation. They talked to other climbers, but nothing really seemed to work. When I began regularly climbing El Cap in 1995, I too believed the lies, assuming that the two of them were mad bolters who had done a botch job on El Cap and had thus been run out of the Valley on a rail, never daring to show their faces here again.
It really wasn't until they were heard and begun to be understood here on McTopo five and a half years ago that the tide began to slowly turn in their favour. They and their route may never achieve "acceptance", but they are at least on their way to being "understood".
I very much look forward to hearing Kait and Ammon's feedback from the route, and wish them continuing success!
Cheers, eh?
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
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#1SuperMama
Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
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From Ammon and Kait this A.M.:
"Pitch 5 the real deal - heads up scary!
No bolts or rivet ladders so far.
We see no evidence that anyone has come past the anchor at pitch 4, due to no bail slings."
And this mama has no clue what any of the above means - hahaha
But they assured me you all do.
So onwards and upwards pitch six they will begin soon.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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THANK YOU for the update!!
OP, please do not nuke this thread.
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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god I have been sucked in...
Pete, for once you make perfect sense. I agree whole heartily with what you just wrote. Thank you.
Ammon and Kait, good on you guys, hope all is well up there! Finally someone decides to shut up the masses and just go do it. Ego aside and climb the climb for what it is... a climb.
My question is why attack these two? Yes we have heard the argument about the Bird but what about the others? What about Jim Beyer while doing the Martyrs Brigade route and chopping parts of other routes and booby Trapping others? Why is Eric Sloan not ran out of the Valley for drilling on classic routes? The list could go on... these are guys that are affecting other routes, not doing first ascents. Just seems weak sauce in my book.
For those who have done an FA bigwall most will do whatever they can to produce a climb that you are proud of when finished. It becomes your "baby" of sorts, but as the FA team they are the captain of their own ship and leave behind a small legacy of the type of climber that they where. Steve G. along with Mr. Cole left behind routes with min drilling, hard free climbing, and boldness. The WOS guys left behind a few routes that climbed the great slab and still as of today remained unrepeated! That to me says something way more then "the Sea" or "Jolly Roger" this climb has had attempts by some of the strongest wall climbers and turned them all back... So bravo Richard and Mark looks like a wonderful route that has stood the test of time. I believe in the benefit of the doubt, I hope your motives were pure up there and soon if Ammon and Kait send we will know the truth. If that happens I hope that Mr. Steve G. can look past his own ego and write up a reply to the boys. Apology I think it is called these days, which in my opinion would be the boldest and raddest move done to date.
Kurt Burt
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Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
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Rock on daughter! Ammon and you are kicking some butt up there! Pete: You are right ..Kait is a sweetie but she's a tough sweetie. you're right about Annie too! Thanks for the support!
Pops
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