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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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WRONG again, Skip, it must get tiring speaking first before you know the facts.
I was forced to grow up very strict Catholic, altar boy and all.
Don't know how old you are or if you were raised Catholic, but back
in the 1950's the church was very clear that if you were not baptized
Catholic, no way were you going to heaven.
How much do you know about Catholic dogma in the 1950's? I LIVED it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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I need to add a disclaimer here on my way to "running to the dugout." :D
I often times REALLY miss the mark, the "high standard" put forth by my friend jesus. It's why I try and stay so close to him. It is so darn easy for me to blow it. Peace, lynne
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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Lynne wrote: Christian's must be jesus followers according to the definition.....roughly, of Christ.
Yeah, but seeing as he's not around here to ask (okay, notwithstanding the Jesus in your head) - I guess that leaves it open to interpretation how Jesus might define it, right?
So then, who gets to decide? The Pope? You? Me? Some head honcho guy in Salt Lake City? I dunno about you, but I don't like any of those answers. I say if a person says they believe they're following Christ, then that's their belief. I'm sorry, but every Christian thinks their version is the only "valid" one. I think that's totally bogus.
If you feel that having a minister being the head of the KKK reflects poorly on you and your faith, I understand and empathize with your dilemma. But casting him out in your own mind accomplishes nothing except to make you feel better about what it means to be a follower of Jesus.
GO
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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Lynne:
You say you do not always stay as close to Jesus as you would like. For those times when you are not as close as you would like, do you consider yourself to be not Christian? Or do you still say you are a christian?
Be careful now. You don't want to lie, right?
And remember the KKK may feel exactly the same as you when they are not as close to Jesus as they would like. They too did things they knew Jesus would not have approved.
Your two situations are structurally identical. Your only defense is that you did not lynch anyone.
Now when you are talking to some one other than a member of the KKK, perhaps a rapist, do you now draw the "christian line" at rape?
OK now shall we talk about a person who makes a mistake on their income tax. How about that as a "christian line"?
I can't say it any more directly. It is not left to you to distinguish who is a christian depending upon how you want to define them at the moment.
In that case the term Christian------has lost all meaning.
Is it your intention that this term have no meaning?
Do you believe Jesus wants to see this term lose all meaning?
GO and I are not posing questions in order to get you. There is something at stake here.
If people are to be able to help each other we have to be able to communicate. To do that we have to respect the uses of words and the use of language. You are failing of your most deeply held beliefs when you slip and begin to make up your own definitions for the words you use.
Better you say you are a pouiqehtgoqe, not a christian. Then tell anyone who asks, what a pouiqehtgoqe believes. But always give the same response whenever asked.
Edit:
Skip, just above I answered your comment before I even saw it. Read it and see what I am saying.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 04:29pm PT
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Skip, do you understand what YEAR Vatican 2 was initiated?
Do you understand that from my post that I clearly said 1955, and again
the "1950s". Why don't you look up date of Vatican 2.
Then apologize to me for YOU being "flat wrong" about what was indeed
church doctrine in 1950's.
I am not spreading "bs" as you claim, in fact it is YOU who does not
know the history of the Catholic Church.
It is I, as an ex Altar boy, who knows church doctrine better than YOU.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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Hi Skip
I can't speak for anyone else, but Lynne's words don't make me feel threatened. They do, however, make me curious, so I ask questions. That's not wrathful, and I don't think Lynne feels that it is.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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The Pharisees handed Jesus over to Pilate and the mob demanded a crucifixion fix, because they didn't have much else in the way of cheap entertainment back then. Pilate finally said, hey, if that's what you mongrels want, fine, ain't none of my damn business. Go right ahead.
A few days later Jesus's disciples were so freaked out by the whole thing that they broke into the tomb, stole the body and started telling people the whole monkey-gone-to-heaven story.
Simple as that.
Over the next couple hundred years this crazy cult, one among many, gained political power and established itself as the "wish fulfillment center" of Western culture. Other equally irrational belief systems developed elsewhere at other times. Thanks to literacy and publishing, these things perpetuated themselves and came into infamous and unavoidable conflict. So here we are today.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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You know it really is quite unusual for a five year old to challenge so successfully a dictum coming down from an elder. "Where do all the other kids go?" he asked.
Norton even had the prospect of facing a rather angry mother.
I did not do nearly that well myself. I went to sunday school once where I had to spend the morning with crayons coloring a book of squirrels.
When my mom asked how I liked sunday school I said, "I haven't time to spend coloring squirrels! I have to get the plowing done!"
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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It's amusing that the Roman Catholics didn't invent "papal infallibility" until 1870. Which presumably means that the preceding 1800+ years worth of popes (more properly, bishops of Rome) were fallible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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Now there's some false witness.
Very disappointing.
Don't usually do this but "past" is the word for which you were looking.
Dr. F raises something interesting. A question.
If you did not know any language, would you still have a voice in your head?
Before language was invented, did people function worse or better than they do now?
Edit:
Actually on this topic I have to lengthen my exposition far beyond what I normally would. So as to try and draw the logical conflicts out in excruciating detail.
And I need to say I would have to ask for time to think a bit before choosing with which I would prefer to tangle.
Norton
or a grizzly bear
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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Um, yeah, and it's "bear" false witness. You have a whole other thing implied there. More dramatic, fer sure.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Skip, YOU were the one who challenged my statement of fact regarding
Catholic Church doctrine in the 1950's. You said I was flat wrong, and
that I was spreading "bs". You then said that the Second Vatican Counsel
proved me wrong.
I pointed out to you that the Second Vatican was not until the 1960's.
therefore it was NOT IN EFFECT when I was growing up in the 1950s.
It was YOU who was categorically wrong in your knowledge of 1950s church history.
So now, because you are personally angry to be corrected by me, an atheist,
you resort to childish name calling.
I will NOT join you in your grade school level personal name calling.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:00pm PT
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" you ever hear a Rabbi say that if a goy (non-jew) believes in Jehovah in his heart, that makes him a Jew? It's preposterous! And if a Jew lives a selfish, petty life, but believes in Jehovah, that makes him a mensch (a good Jew)?"
God's Judgment and the Law
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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"And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy."
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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From UC Davis http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/
http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~vemuri/EngPopsci/How_old_are_we.htm
Prior to Kali Yuga was a stretch of time called Dwapar Yuga; it was twice as long as Kali Yuga, or 2 x 4,32,000 years.
Prior to that was Treta Yuga of 3 x 4,32,000 years. Before that, it was Krita Yuga with a duration of 4 x 4,32,000 years. All these four yugas together is a Maha Yuga, the Great Era.
So a Maha Yuga is 4.32 million years, ten times as long as Kali Yuga. Incidentally, the beginning of the latest Maha Yuga coincides roughly with, what modern science calls, the emergence of humanoids.
Twenty seven Maha Yugas is one Pralaya. Seven Pralayas is one Manvantara. Finally, six Manvantaras is a Kalpa. That is, one Kalpa is 27×7×6 = 1,134 Maha Yugas.
This works out to 1134 x 4.3 million = 4.876 billion years. And, according to modern science, that is the approximate age of the planet Earth.”
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 13, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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Nature's God is wise and just. No discrimination. No hell to burn in. No dues to pay to a religion. No power struggles. No one to tell you what to believe.
He/She will judge you by your thoughts and actions and reward you with a paradise of incredible beauty, full of wonderful people, and anything you want to do. This paradise is called Earth.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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Uh, Werner, 4,32,000 is not a number. But okay, maybe they guessed that one right anyway.
Do the Vedas mention the beginnings of multicellular life by any chance, or the rise of atmospheric oxygen, or the development of bilateral symmetry and spinal cords? 'Cause if transmigration of souls is real, we all spent an extremely long time coming back again and again as tiny little critters before any of that even happened.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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I can't believe a thread this fruitful has had a 30 minute break.
It seems to me today the power that each of us seeks is entirely within ourselves.
The strength that is required to accept fate.
The flowering of human thought that originated in the Fertile Crescent five or six thousand years ago with the introduction of agriculture and was later extended to Greece long before the time of Christ just has not been sustained. It is as though we, somewhere along the way, have just simply run out of steam.
There have to be studies of this of which I am ignorant. But it is the primary fact in human history that grabs one’s mind.
WTF happened?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Go, I would never cast anyone out. The life that I desire to live is described by the words of jesus in the N.T. lynnie
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