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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Rap bolts were placed on Wings of Steel??
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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bwhaha, keep it real, knott...
I've belayed some of these "proud" "GU" ascents...it's kind of phocked people think "good style" is a (quite frequent) bolt ladder...
The traddies that taught me how to climb were purist...stance only, no batts, no hooks, no hangin', no friggin...any breach of "ethics" was "just that"...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yeah, Peace and the Bachar-Yerian are a pretty good parallel here.
Like Growing Up and Southern Belle you get to choose one or the other high quality route --one's a bit harder, the other more runout. Either way, have a blast.
...Once the rap bolters got through installing the option, that is.
Peace/out,
Doug
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mark and Richard didn't rap bolt on Wings of Steel. All bolts and rivets were placed on lead in a continuous alpine-style push without using fixed ropes. A bold and evidently extremely difficult route which stands unrepeated after a quarter-century.
Thank goodness the Bachar-Yerian stands as a testament to courage - imagine if it were just another [overbolted] sport route?
DOUG ROBINSON I AM SO DISAPPOINTED IN YOU!
I am heartbroken. Brilliant author of words and routes, preservationist of ethics, clean climber extraordinaire. Could you have found any better way to destroy your credibility, and make yourself appear so hypocritical? I will not do you the disservice of repeating your words from The Whole Natural Art of Protection which ec quoted above, for fear of further embarrassing you.
What were you thinking? That the end justifies the means? Man, you really shot yourself in the foot this time. If you are not embarrassed by this travesty you really ought to be. YOU OF ALL PEOPLE!
Shameful.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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426 wrote: The traddies that taught me how to climb were purist...stance only, no batts, no hooks, no hangin', no friggin...any breach of "ethics" was "just that"...
I remember having a wonderful conversation with John Gill one day as we went bouldered near Pueblo, CO.
We talked about how once you weighted the rope...it was aid...no-if's, and's or but's. Only pulling the rope and placing gear on lead was a viable true trad-ascent. Sometime in the 70's this black & white view of climbing got gray...and then grayer and then standards and amount of hard climbs got higher. Things that seems impossible just years before all of sudden became attainable.
Every generation "breaks the rules" and that is a good thing!
Think for yourself and question authority...Timothy Leary
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WBraun
climber
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Or can be bad thing too.
For example, dharma, which indicates a respect for higher authority has diminished.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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To say there isn't any more lines on the stone is a false premise based on egocentric self imposed limitations. It is in fact a way of saying no one will ever climb harder than we do today. The routes being established today were utterly inconceivable only a generation ago. The great climbing continuum has many times witnessed what was once considered the hardest climb possible become another trade route as standards increased making the impossible mundane. Many in every generation have thought no one will ever climb harder. much like saying no one will ever run the mile faster than or long jump farther than... History has shown that belief to be quite false. Much of humanity strives to break out of convention and break records. One day the SFHD will have dozens of stellar routes (and variations) put up using the evolving tactics and equipment of the day. Many of those routes will be done "ground up" in bold style using protection breakthroughs that we can only dream of at this time.
What Doug and Sean did was preferable to establishing another aid or death route and then patching and retro bolting it for a free climb. Personally I find that approach to be vulgar at best. It was always an accepted tenent of the clean climbing revolution that you only repeated routes in as good of or better style than the best style it had been done in so far. So before you go ranting about removal of "Growing Up" I would say grow up and look around carefully. There is a large percentage of fully accepted classic routes that should be retro cleaned to their FA conditions first. Based on some of the hard lined stances on ethics posted here how many people do you suppose would agree to erase their ticks on routes like The Nose or Hallucinogen because the have been radically altered from their FA condition? How many people will disregard their ascent of Stratosfear because it was established with liberal uses of preinspection, rehersal and rap placed protection? Why is the SFHD more sacrosanct than the Painted wall?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The strangest thing so far is PTPP calling Doug shameful.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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No bob that was shamefull not funny.
What was funny is DaftRat's assertion he was going to go chop "Growing Up". As if he were even capable. Although it could be good training for his carving George Bush on Mt. Rushmore.
Hey Fatty will that be a ground up carving or will you have to rap drill?
Bob D are you going to the Webster show at Neptunes tonight?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I did not call Doug shameful [identity] - quite the opposite. I said I feel that his behaviour is shameful, because of his previous bitchin' behaviours and ethical stances, and I am accordingly disappointed. If I didn't respect him, I wouldn't be disappointed.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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this part, right here, has some good excrishit!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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PTPP wrote: YOU OF ALL PEOPLE!
Shameful.
Oh...it so clear to me now.
Phil...I think I'll be there...haven't seen Ed in years.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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PtPP's trolling for another 600 posts I think.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Ihateplastic writes:
EDIT:: Russ, did you mean to say "limited?" It would seem UNlimited would fit your sentence better. Not trying to be the corrector-of-all here, just wonderin' out loud.
Nope. Absolutely meant Limited. These huge faces can have less climbable rock than you might think. The available rock for "real" FA climbing will become less if top down bolt fests are getting slugged in and are the new norm.... there is only so much cheese for all the rats.
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WBraun
climber
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"....there is only so much cheese for all the rats."
Hahahaha
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firegrunt
climber
Santa Cruz
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All this chatter reminds me of the story about John Salathe, as told by Galen Rowell in his book The Vertical World of Yosemite: John is listening to a group of young hot-shots arguing about climbing ethics. . . when he finally says in his thick accent, "Vy cant ve just climb?" Granted, some of you posting here are no longer "young hot shots". But maybe Salathe was onto something. Maybe we should let Salathe have the last word. . . and move on.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Climbing is more than just getting to the top of something. As we value the journey, we put various constraints on that journey.
Just as some folks see rap bolting and putting in routes in that way as something they are doing for the future generations, those of us that hold the ground up ethic deer are also keeping it out there for future generations.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Sonnie trotter dialing a sport climb, than chopping the bolts he used to dial it, and sending it on gear facing 45 footers into clean air are the new school death routes. lol.
If sacrificing style furthers the ability of man, thats one thing. Beth rodden is a prime example.
Where is Dan-o when you need him?
Anyways. I'd like to nominate fatty as head commissioner of the Armchair Athletes™™, the sovereign lord of nonsensical rhetoric and Zeus of phrase repitition. May he reign long and prosper on his throne of past accomplishments and egos of lesser beings, banished to the world of *my rule not yours.*
lulz.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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I'm pretty sure Sonnie chopped the bolts on the Path (which had never been freed) before working it. They were off the line he wanted to follow and had crappy home made aluminum hangers.
Definitely a head point though with preinspected gear and the falls were pretty clean given that the route is overhanging and the second pitch.
There's a long discussion about it on his blog. He was called out on the Gripped forum for putting up a route that is too bold and that nobody will climb. He claims someone will onsight it gear and all some day.
You can't win when your a public figure putting up eye catching routes.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Pokin' fun atcha, fatty! You know I like ya, even if youre a bit whacky! i mean heck, i wanted to appoint you HEAD of the Living Room Athletes Team!
"You can't win when your a public figure putting up eye catching routes."
When you bring a videographer and post it on your blog, you can't lol. Like I said, sonnie is a badass and I can't carry his water. I just don't enjoy all the spray following people. This "buzz" is reminiscent of so many other instances. Some new hotshot is supposed to be the number one climber in the world, does the hardest thing of his life, than moves on.
Not taht it is for everyone, but what about Eric Decaria? THAT is a climbing hero. I know sonnie has to appease sponsers, but c'mon... this isn't Football. You will never make money as a "pro Climber," and hopefully you never will... I don't like the idea of it being so mainstream that climbers re-nogotiate salaries based on recent FA's.
same with Dean... HUGE amount of respect for his abilities and accomplishments, but if I hear about the soul of the rock again I'm gonna puke. lol.
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