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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
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Fair point, HFCS, but that wasn't where I was heading with my argument. Obviously, to prove compatibility requires much more time and space than anyone would want to read here - and particularly so if I wrote it. I was simply offering specific examples of those who saw no incompatibility to demonstrate that those individuals exist.
My main thrust was to try to get away from those sorts of arguments, and get down to specific points that people either find troubling or would like LC to expand upon. The [choose one] "[_] No one I respect or [_] Everyone I respect believes this" is not a logical argument.
John
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John M
climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:05pm PT
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Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.
sycophants? huh...thats pretty weird since their is nothing to gain by agreeing with LC. And since I definitely disagreed with him. Why do you resort to generalizations? And why the need to insult? LC is just trying to answer peoples questions. I see nothing in what he is doing to try and convince anyone of anything. He is just giving his point of view as it is obvious to those who believe that there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there. I generally consider you to be a reasonable person Fritz, but when it comes to religious beliefs or a belief in God, people seem to get bent. Though I do understand part of where it comes from, since most non believers have been faced with believers who seem to condemn them. Even as a believer I have been condemned by other believers for not believing the way that they do. Though that is not the case from LC.
Hopefully this thread will help people see that there is a wide range of beliefs, and even among believers, there is disagreement, but that this doesn't mean we have to hate on each other. Either side of that equation is not good. Whether it be a believer condemning a person for their non belief, or a non believer hating on a person for their belief.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 13, 2016 - 04:15pm PT
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John M. I am truly sorry that you found my most recent post objectionalble, since I respect your usually mellow opinions. I have to admit to thinking about what might have annoyed you enough that you think you need to chide me for my bad attitude.
Perhaps we have different definitions of the noun sycophant? My normal short definitions are "brown-noiser" or "suck-up." However I have no problem with Dictionary.com's definition: "a self-seeking, servile flatterer.
Cheer up! I will be punished in hell for all eternity for my lack of belief and bad attitude.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
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So, how old is the Earth? did god plant dinosaur bones to test your faith?
Also, is there anything you don't have pat 'cuz jesus' answer for?
any mysteries that keep you up at night that aren't solved by your interpretation of the good book via the GAY King James and his furiously copying monk boyfriends (all the direct word of Yaweh, of course)?
http://etb-history-theology.blogspot.com/2012/03/king-james-was-gay.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http:// https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I
do Jews go to hell?
-I try to base my beliefs about topics addressed in the Bible on what Jesus taught, so I hope not! As long as questions are about that stuff, then Jesus is who I refer to.
-Not that I can think of. Maybe, will I get to snowboard in heaven?
-I believe that depends on the Jew as faith in Jesus and God is personal (Romans 10:9)
I didn't see any indication in the first article that 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs. Did I miss it? The second link didn't work for me at all.
The first article was just about how using those different part of your brain can be beneficial, and the second link was the list. Once you copy and paste it it automatically downloads to your computer so I'm not sure where it would end up for you. Not that I think either one of those are particularly important, I was just responding with my beliefs about the notion that faith and science are mutually exclusive.
Do you believe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in the same God? If so, why the differences in their believes? If not, why not? (If you have already answered the question, I apologize. I didn't read the whole 700+ posts.)
In a way, yes. They all believe in the God of the Old Testament, but Jews believe that Jesus was either a false Messiah or perhaps a prophet (they don't think he fulfilled the prophesies of the Old Testament), and Muslims Believe Jesus was a prophet (but they believe most writings were tampered with so they defer to Muhammad's Quran). Christians believe that Jesus was God incarnate, so they are the only ones who believe in that aspect of God, and I believe it was that action that offered freedom from and forgiveness for sin (Galatians 5:13, John 8:38).
Why do smart people believe stupid things?
Cognitive bias/confirmation No argument here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 13, 2016 - 04:19pm PT
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Fritz you will be happy to know that the new hell uses the eternal flames to heat the saunas and the hot tubs and that the house red is rather good.
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John M
climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
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Hey Fritz, I guess I just don't see who I am sucking up to nor any benefit of sucking up. Plus sucking up has always had a bad connotation to me.
Cheer up! I will be punished in hell for all eternity for my lack of belief and bad attitude.
cool.. or maybe HOT !!!.. :-) even though I don't believe in an eternal hell and still consider myself a Christian.
...
Jim..
So thaaats where hot springs come from. woot for natural hot springs. LOL.. love me some hot springs.
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Norton
Social climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
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One question if you would, limpingcrab
Do you agree that portions of the bible were indeed written by men, their thoughts, their words?
I believe you know those passages i am referring to, the horrible ones where humans are commanded to enslave, rape, and murder each other
just one, of many, examples to refresh your memory
Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
either the bible IS the direct word of god or it is not, either some portions were and some portions were not, being clearly the writings of men of that era
so which is it, what do you personally believe, limpingcrap?
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
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One question if you would, limpingcrab
Do you agree that portions of the bible were indeed written by men, their thoughts, their words?
I believe you know those passages i am referring to, the horrible ones where humans are commanded to enslave, rape, and murder each other
just one, of many, examples to refresh your memory
Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."
either the bible IS the direct word of god or it is not, either some portions were and some portions were not, being clearly the writings of men of that era
so which is it, what do you personally believe, limpingcrap? I understand how passages like that are tough to read, for Christians as well, but I believe that they are also the word of God.
First, I don't believe that because it happened in the Bible it is God's will for every age and every culture, and I also believe that context is very important. That is why I was having trouble knowing exactly what you were alluding to before.
At this time, God was using Israelites to punish people who had rejected him and who were practicing many disgusting things, like human sacrifice, without remorse. They had over 400 years of warnings. This was both a punishment and to protect others from being influenced, in a similar fashion as the flood.
The first part shows that God still loved them and would rather have them surrender than die. If they surrendered, they would survive, despite their continued sinfulness and warnings. As slaves they were afforded rights, protection, time to mourn, and their identity as a human (exodus 21:11, Deuteronomy 21:14). This was a far cry from the standard military procedure at that time, and would have been considered an unbelievable grace. Reading the book of Deuteronomy today is a very foreign experience, but at the time it was revolutionary in its teachings of humanitarianism compared to what was going on all around Israel. For example, there were no other cultures that considered sexual exploitation of captives as rape, besides Israel.
As it says, if they did not surrender the men would be killed, but all others kept, and protected, as if they surrendered.
In essence, I believe God does judge and He does punish severely, but he would rather not. I believe that God has influence on when anyone's life ends, whether today in a car crash or in 50 years, and if He chooses sooner rather than later I do not believe it is murder.
This story may still be hard to read, as most of us would not enjoy war in ancient times, but I believe it is what happened and it was directed by God. After all, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). I am glad he suffered the punishment himself and gave us the gift of a clean conscience and a relationship with Him, should we choose to simply accept it (John 3:16).
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 06:41pm PT
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Ok, so now I get it!
According to conservative Christians:
The Bible is a living document to be interpreted through Neo Christian values by biblical scholars and disseminated for mass consumption by the flock and Heretics alike.
Judicial interpretation of the Constitution is dangerous and our laws are based on strict constructionism- period.
I'm not saying your conservative Limpcrab but this is what Agnostics and atheist are confronted with. The hypocrisy comes in the form of telling my kids to pray in school and expunging references to evolution in their textbooks- you know, harmless stuff like that...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Apr 13, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
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Lots of his, him, he
going on with the o.p.
Is that the trinity?
Virgin birth?
Immaculate conception?
Why no credit to the mother?
Love and respect.
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Norton
Social climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
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ok limpingcrab,
then I take your answer clearly to state that you believe god commands humans to hold each other as slaves and to rape and murder other humans
and sorry not buying the premise that humans at only two thousand years ago were too stupid to understand or because they simply had to be talked to in the brutal language of that age, instead of god teling them that those are really wrong ways to treat each other and in fact to not do that stuff at all
by refusing, against common sense and reason, to come out and state that it is clear to you that men, men wrote those those sections of the bible really hurts your credibility, your message because it insults even childlike intelligence in addition to showing just how inflexible and rigid your brain operates, So be it.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 13, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
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TT
Not only are you going to hell!
But you will be reborn into a version of your present self at some uber cool eternal campfire, and all your bros are here, and it will go on and on until you go crazy!!
It's HeLLL!!!
or maybe not
you make a good point
invalidates the whole shebang
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 13, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
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Must a Jew acknowledge Christ as the Messiah or no heaven, do not pass go? ?????
Sounds judgmental to me IMHO.
and if you are Hitler, Aryan God told you to kill and torture the Jews cuz they killed jesus! .... and they still go to hell!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 13, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
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John M. I am a little slow in my response to your 2nd. response, which was:
Apr 13, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
Hey Fritz, I guess I just don't see who I am sucking up to nor any benefit of sucking up. Plus sucking up has always had a bad connotation to me.
I didn't accuse you of sucking up to Limping Crab, but if you feel I did, perhaps you did & have guilt & sin in your heart? Never a problem for a Christian, since they know how to handle that problem.
My original post on the subject was:
Apr 13, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
Donini! Re your assertion:
These threads are absolutely useless. No one is going to have the slightest impact on a "faith based" persons beliefs no matter what arguments they use. Conversely, arguments based on faith will have absolutely zero impact on a person without faith.
Not quite so!
Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 09:30pm PT
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Lots of his, him, he
going on with the o.p.
Is that the trinity?
Virgin birth?
Immaculate conception?
Why no credit to the mother? I just use that word because it's what I'm used to reading in the Bible. I do believe in the Trinity but don't know of a word that combines he/them/it etc... I'd have to cite a ton of verses and I understand that the Trinity is an odd concept. I believe that there is an analogy with time: past, present and future, but only one time. I also believe in the virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14, Luke 1:34) and give as much credit to Mary as I would to anyone who serves God.
Must a Jew acknowledge Christ as the Messiah or no heaven, do not pass go? ?????
I believe Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6).
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John M
climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 09:35pm PT
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Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.
Fritz, I was responding to the above.
your own definition of sycophant.
My normal short definitions are "brown-noiser" or "suck-up."
So who do you define as his sycophants on this thread?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 11:34pm PT
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then I take your answer clearly to state that you believe god commands humans to hold each other as slaves and to rape and murder other humans
Norton, your statement has universal application. God's command did not. The command was directed to a specific group of particularly depraved people at a specific time and place, which is what I understood LC's answer to state. There was nothing that generalized that command, nor that condoned such conduct elsewhere. It would, however, lead one to conclude that the Bible says God takes sin exceedingly seriously -- a theme one cannot miss from Genesis to Revelation.
John
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 14, 2016 - 01:42am PT
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I found this more amazing from the article:
Zack Houghton is a guy whose first name is Zack and whose last name is Houghton.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 14, 2016 - 04:39am PT
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I believe Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6)
So the jew God of the Torah is same God as 'old testament god' for modern evangelicals, but they got version .1, new testament is .2 (cuz jesus!).... so wrong version eh? like having to run Windows 8
The question was, is, and continues to be:
do Jews burn in torture for eternity in the lake of fire?
I know HELL is a tough sell these days, but again,
do Jews go to HELL?
12th Century Jew Hell:
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