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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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PotatoHead is the direct cause of threads being frozen, he is unable to control his hatred and his flaming insults for all that know more than him
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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The Gun Thread was frozen with Potatohead as the last post
raving about the libs posting lies!!!
with insults galore
you do the math
find a post of his w/out insults
most of us libs can post comments w/out having to resort to spews of insults w/out any back up.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Here is what matters
Bringing the Center of the Road Centrist American Majority policies back to America. To end the Reagan era of decline and join the 21st Century.
We have always been a Democratic Socialist Country, the Military, roads, education, the VA, the courts, Medicare, Social Security, it's all socialism, and it's not going to lead to Communism.
Every 1st World Country has a Democratic Socialist Gov. except the Theocracies.
Every issue Bernie is running on polls at around 70% of the American Population. He represents the Center, he just seems to the left because we have gone so far to the right.
Bernie Sanders
On the Issues
The American people must demand that Congress and the White House start protecting the interests of working families, not just wealthy campaign contributors.
The American people must make a fundamental decision. Do we continue the 40-year decline of our middle class and the growing gap between the very rich and everyone else, or do we fight for a progressive economic agenda that creates jobs, raises wages, protects the environment and provides health care for all? Are we prepared to take on the enormous economic and political power of the billionaire class, or do we continue to slide into economic and political oligarchy? These are the most important questions of our time, and how we answer them will determine the future of our country.
The long-term deterioration of the middle class, accelerated by the Wall Street crash of 2008, has not been pretty. Today, we have more wealth and income inequality than any major country on earth. We have one of the highest childhood poverty rates and we are the only country in the industrialized world which does not guarantee health care for all. We once led the world in terms of the percentage of our people who graduated college, but we are now in 12th place. Our infrastructure, once the envy of the world, is collapsing.
Real unemployment today is not 5.8 percent, it is 11.5 percent if we include those who have given up looking for work or who are working part time when they want to work full time. Youth unemployment is 18.6 percent and African-American youth unemployment is 32.6 percent.
Today, millions of Americans are working longer hours for lower wages. In inflation-adjusted dollars, the median male worker earned $783 less last year than he made 41 years ago. The median female worker made $1,337 less last year than she earned in 2007. Since 1999, the median middle-class family has seen its income go down by almost $5,000 after adjusting for inflation, now earning less than it did 25 years ago.
The American people must demand that Congress and the White House start protecting the interests of working families, not just wealthy campaign contributors. We need federal legislation to put the unemployed back to work, to raise wages and make certain that all Americans have the health care and education they need for healthy and productive lives.
As Vermont’s senator, here are 12 initiatives that I will be fighting for which can restore America’s middle class.
See the 12 initiatives here
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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We have always been a Democratic Socialist Country, the Military, roads, education, the VA, the courts, Medicare, Social Security, it's all socialism, and it's not going to lead to Communism.
That statement is so fundamentally mistaken that it would take a book-length treatise to explicate the layers of errors in it. I'll very briefly summarize just some of the errors.
1) There is a VAST difference between what you are calling "socialism" at the state and local levels and "socialism" at the federal level. If my HOA "socializes" roof repairs, and I don't like the distribution, I can easily leave and buy a condo elsewhere. I can quite easily change cities or even states, But, as Madison said, no man should be forced to abandon the nation of his birth. The feds were not supposed to have anything to do with redistribution of wealth, because that sort of thing at the national level is effectively inescapable!
2) Most of your examples are not in the slightest sense "socialism". When I pay taxes that go to support a national military, the theory is that I am purchasing my OWN defense; I am personally getting the very "product" I'm paying for. The government is not taking my money, giving me personally NO benefit for it, and then simply giving that money to somebody else.
3) The military as a specific example is a terrible one, as that is actually something the feds are SUPPOSED to provide according to the constitution. So, as a fundamental part of me being part of this this NATION, I am constitutionally obligated to contribute toward the common defense of this nation. But I enjoy the VERY benefits I am paying for. By contrast, I am not obligated to ensure that the feds provide good roads or anything else like that. The constitution provided for a VERY FEW powers and responsibilities at the FEDERAL level, and EVERYTHING beyond those specified powers/responsibilities was to be retained by the states and people.
4) You actually are clueless enough to include Social Security and Medicare in the mix. Yes, those are examples of national socialism indeed! But they are also HIGHLY contentious, which means that by including them you are effectively arguing: "SINCE the introduction of those forms of socialism, we have been socialistic; so this country is socialistic." But the VERY POINT under contention is that we never should have gone down that path in the first place! Wilson and then FDR turned the nation toward socialism, and now it INCREASINGLY is. For you to say that "it's not going to lead to communism" is ridiculous! How FAR down the road of socialism do you have to go before it has effectively become communism? Are you psychic? We are MUCH further down the path than we were early in my lifetime. And Obamacare is a BIG additional step down the path. Ridiculous!
5) Education? At the federal level? Show me in the constitution, even in the interstate commerce clause (writ even larger than it has been so far), where the federal government has ANY right or power to be in the business of education in the slightest!
You conflate small-scale, state and local "socialism," that really isn't, with national-scale socialism that really is! The small-scale examples are not fundamentally coercive as federal socialism is.
And most of your examples of "socialism" really are not. When I contribute to the military, the fire department, roads, local education, etc., I am purchasing a direct benefit to myself. I enjoy the VERY thing I collectively purchase.
Socialism, by contrast, is fundamentally wealth-redistribution. I do NOT enjoy the benefit of the very thing I purchased. Social Security is a perfect example. Pyramid scheme it IS, and I will NEVER see the money OUT of it that I was FORCED to put into it. And that's talking static dollars. In fact, the situation is even worse than that. I will get a few wildly devalued dollars back out compared to the MANY higher-valued dollars I put in.
Had I done nothing but kept MY OWN money and put it in the lowest-interest bearing bank account available at any given moment, I would today be far, far, FAR ahead of where I will be by drawing Social Security benefits. And ALL of that assumes that it will even be there AT ALL when I go to tap into it. So, in NO sense have I been purchasing a benefit TO MYSELF by being FORCED to contribute to this SCAM my whole life. Social Security is NOTHING but my life of contributions being parted out to OTHERS, leaving me with FAR less (meaning NO benefit to me) than I contributed. It is wealth-redistribution in one of its cruelest forms!
And Social Security is a classic example of yet another principle: the principle of escape. If a state did some crap like Romneycare, I can MOVE and escape it rather than contribute to the stupidity.
You can easily escape your HOA, your city, and even your state. You cannot escape the feds. And that's the most basic reason why using local examples cannot in principle justify federal socialism.
You don't seem to understand what socialism even IS, and your conflation of small-scale with federal socialism demonstrates that you don't understand even the basic principles of why the powers of the federal government were SO constrained and limited in the constitution.
When Roberts asked, "If the government can do this, then what can government NOT do?" he was asking THE crucial question! And his "answer" via his vote will live in infamy, as he effectively stated: "The federal government can do ANYTHING." And that "answer" turns the constitution ON ITS HEAD!!!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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Socialism, by contrast, is fundamentally wealth-redistribution. I do NOT enjoy the benefit of the very thing I purchased. Social Security is a perfect example. Pyramid scheme it IS, and I will NEVER see the money OUT of it that I was FORCED to put into it. And that's talking static dollars. In fact, the situation is even worse than that. I will get a few wildly devalued dollars back out compared to the MANY higher-valued dollars I put in.
Why didn't you opt out and take a state job or move to a non-socialist country, where you could indeed escape the Feds? You seem to be a moving-on kind a guy.
EDIT:
Excuse me for butting into your pen-pal exchange. Bless me father, for I may have sinned.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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And most of your examples of "socialism" really are not. When I contribute to the military, the fire department, roads, local education, etc., I am purchasing a direct benefit to myself. I enjoy the VERY thing I collectively purchase.
Socialism, by contrast, is fundamentally wealth-redistribution.
Wrong!
you don't understand what socialism is
you confuse it with Communism, they are completely different
Fire, police, foods stamps, urban development, all socialism, it's everywhere
there is No wealth redistribution, that's total BS
just higher taxes on the rich, which we all agree is fair
cognitive bias = convincing yourself of something you already believe, but is provably wrong
it always takes several long paragraphs of debate with yourself, you are so good at it, we should get a physiologist in here to study this
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oh, yikes....
This has become ridiculous. I'm tired of it.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Craig is absolutely correct.
Madbolter you sound as if you are a 1%er.
Democratic Socialism is the way FORWARD for the 98% Majority,like it or not.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Madbolter is the only sane one here.
Presents a rational reasoned answers that are clearly beyond the reach of a progs intellectual capacity, too long and detailed for their limited attention spans.
Hildebeest and bill are true 0.001% percenters. Why they attract such sycophants is a mystery.
Here's a smart 1%er
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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He must be a 1%er.
Thanks for the insults .
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philo
Trad climber
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel or a tr
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TGT if MadBolter is the only sane one here what does that make you?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Do we continue the 40-year decline of our middle class and the growing gap between the very rich and everyone else
Please, explain how your socialism works with a Lower Class, Middle Class, Upper Class system.
China loudly proclaims that it's our middle class that will be our demise! I agree! With all the unions, state jobs, military, Etc types of jobs continually adding 3-5% cost of living increases annually. When should it stop? It worked great from the 70's-90's but then all our jobs got pushed to lower wage countries.
On top of that, Pensions. Firemen, cops, military officers, if they live 20 yrs past retirement they end up pulling more money then when they were actually working. THIS more than illegal immigrants is suffocating California! Especially with the baby boomers comin aknockin!!
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Socialism, by contrast, is fundamentally wealth-redistribution
Wrong. Socialism is about keeping wealth in the hands of those who create it. Capitalism is about wealth redistribution. If you can't get the basics right, what else are you wrong on?
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crankster
Trad climber
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What's Fiorina done except being fired from HP? She's barely voted in an election, much less won one. She's a nightmare.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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The American people must make a fundamental decision. Do we continue the 40-year decline of our middle class and the growing gap between the very rich and everyone else, or do we fight for a progressive economic agenda that creates jobs, raises wages, protects the environment and provides health care for all? Are we prepared to take on the enormous economic and political power of the billionaire class, or do we continue to slide into economic and political oligarchy? These are the most important questions of our time, and how we answer them will determine the future of our country.
I just can't get past this
The Middle class is a construct of white people for the advancement of white people. It's start was written in the constitution. Then polarized by FDR' s social security. Since the beginning of whiteman's middle class there have been laws and constructs to keep colored people(the lower class) out. From owning homes to holding a SS card.
In the above quote the MC are crying because their worth is declining. And in the same paragraph they've tied themselves in with what the lower class has been calling for, forever. As far as the lower clas is concerned, the MC are the rich. And how in h@ll are you MC if you don't have a job, or be able to find one for yourself? And if you got a job, you want more money?? And isn't the MC the ones using up more or most of the the environmental resources in the world??? With your fancy houses, and your fancy cars, and your fancy vacations. (Reminds me of a Henry Rollins song, "Family Man" lmao). And crying for insurance. You should be ashamed! Most if not all your MC jobs provide insurance, or atleast pays half.
The middle class has been nothing but segregating and now they want to join forces with the lower class only to take more for themselves from the upper class. Pathetically ironic:-(
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"The stock under Fiorina was a disaster — falling 65% from July 19, 1999, to Feb. 8, 2005."
What a perfect GOP follow-up to GWB! She's a shoo-in....
Repubs will vote for her in droves. She's got that Uh-merri-kin exceptionalism they've been missing for the last 7 years, and every one of them will think that if a Repub is in the WH, their wealth will trickle down all over them like a golden shower.
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dirtbag
climber
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Yeah...meh.
She'll go nowhere. Her senate campaign went nowhere too.
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dirtbag
climber
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For some reason (Faux News?) madbolter thinks the ACA is socialism.
So, yeah, not really worth getting worked up about..
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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Of course Ben Carson did it himself. You have to ask?
In 1987, Carson made medical history with an operation to separate a pair of Siamese twins. The Binder twins were born joined at the back of the head. Operations to separate twins joined in this way had always failed, resulting in the death of one or both of the infants. Carson agreed to undertake the operation. A 70-member surgical team, led by Dr. Carson, worked for 22 hours. At the end, the twins were successfully separated and can now survive independently.
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dirtbag
climber
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That's a wonderful story. It shows that he should stick to surgery.
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