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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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If a person, through religious fervor, rejects knowledge in lieu of orders from the church, that person is wallowing in ignorance, yep!
Absolutely. Whoever said anything to the contrary?
I find it interesting that the nonbelieving or at least agnostic crowd seems to find science and religion to be irreconcilable camps. However, the big elephant in the room is that the vast majority of scientific discoveries were made by adherents of one religion or another. How, therefore, can these two camps not be compatible?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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"I find it interesting that the nonbelieving or at least agnostic crowd seems to find science and religion to be irreconcilable camps. However, the big elephant in the room is that the vast majority of scientific discoveries were made by adherents of one religion or another. How, therefore, can these two camps not be compatible?"
you havw no data to support either statement.
given that about 95% of today's scientists do not believe in a god or gods, and that the majority of scientific discovery has occured in the last few decades, your statement is still...what was its purpose again? Apparently, today's scientists, now truly free to choose their own beliefs without threat of death, torture, or social and professional rejection, choose No Thanks to religion. So, apparently , there is some inherent incompatibility there.
No worries. Most scientists do not believe in leprechauns or unicorns, either. fair is fair.
As for what 'atheists' believe - again, you can only claim to know what they dont believe - in gods. they are individuals with varying proclivities. Try asking one for a change - now there's a thought. but you're not really interested in getting to know any, are you? then you'd have to think twice about posting ignorant sh#t on the innernutz about 'them'.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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I am reminded of a story I heard about a rabbi inviting a Jewish man he knew to come to temple for the High Holy Days. The man replied, "But rabbi, I don't even believe in God", and the rabbi replied, "I also don't believe in the God that you don't believe in. We are monotheistic but there is more than one God even in Judaism".
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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you havw no data to support either statement. There is a ton of data. Simply because you are unaware of it does not mean that it is not true. Sounds alot like the premise of this thread actually. Sounds alot like your mindset actually.
Let me give you just three:
Galileo: Catholic
Mendel: Catholic
Newton: Anglican
I suppose they really aren't considered scientists because their work was not performed within the last 35 yrs.
Wilfull ignorance does not provide a basis for professed knowledge.
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jstan
climber
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As I understand it Galileo was under house arrest during the last years of his life. Indeed the pope before the one now retired started a process to release Galileo but it was drawn back by the now retired pope. Galileo's options were grim had he not recanted his scientific writings and accepted house arrest. His biography suggests he did not want to die and leave his daughter without any protection at all from the Catholic church.
And Newton had a professorship that he was trying to retain. It is doubtful he would have been successful had he challenged the church.
You neglected to mention Darwin whose scientific writings have been opposed by the church from the start.
These people had a great deal of opposition while trying to pursue their path in life. Not familiar with Mendel.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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you dont read carefully FD. plus, um, religious persecution of early scientists anyone? no intellectual honesty, no country for straw men. bye bye.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Tvash, you're a d#@&%e. I'm glad you're not a member of the tribe.
jstan, you are right of course. However (as a Catholic myself), a poor relationship with (really animosity from) the Church reflects only that. It does not disparage the individual's relationship with his or her faith.
With respect to Newton, his faith is well established and I believe goes far beyond simply playing the part for professional reasons. People may divine different motives, but it is going to be speculative at best, whether for or against.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Giordano Bruno. Another good example. More accurately, he was made an example by Pedophilia.com - the church from which I hail. I call the Catholic church 'atheist training camp'. Turn 18, leave the house - see ya, Holy Trinity! Not that I had a bad experience with the papists, mind you. Quite the opposite. It's a God and Santa Claus thing.
The idea that religion and science have peacefully coexisted is, of course, historically ludicrous on its face. And it certainly wasn't science doing the repressing, oppressing, imprisoning, torturing, and killing.
Ditto for human rights for the most part - with a few notable exceptions here and there.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Here's the problem with Tvash and DMT. There is no evidence or opinion anyone can provide to form the basis of a mere reasonable discussion on the issue. None. By way of comparison, jstan, for example, formulates thoughtful questions and responses, which are interesting to consider and respond to. In contrast, your responses are sneering and juvenile. I'm not sure what it is you are actually hoping to accomplish other than the opportunit to use the same blunt object over and over?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I find it interesting that the nonbelieving or at least agnostic crowd seems to find science and religion to be irreconcilable camps.
it's just the Atheists(the anti-religion) group that are trying to make it seem that way..
Everyone knows the bible holds some of the first recorded scientific experiments. Planting your crops for 6yrs in a row, and allowing the earth to rest on the 7th yr. comes to mind pretty fast.
i don't think i'm a good person, compared to jesus
He's been the only good one
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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After 10,000 years of previous experience with agriculture - all over the world, somehow I doubt that the authors of the Bible came up with crop rotation.
Just a guess.
Inventing Perfect Man/God, then comparing yourself to Him is a great way to manufacture guilt - the lingua franca of Christianity. Another challis of original sin, anyone?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Science: 24
Religion: 0
.....
That Newton was a Christian is so... klimmeresque. In addition to other things, read some history, get a feel for it. This might help you break out of your bubble, echo chamber or whatever it is.
Christianity and Islam are not only being dismantled, they are imploding. Happy holidays! :)
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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My guess is there are quite a few athiest christians and atheist ministers/priests.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Re: phrenology:
You might've noticed that very few scientists ascribed to that theory then, and only snake oil salesmen try to foist that off on the guillable few today.
But the church keeps selling the notion of heaven to the superstitious, desperate and scared with claims of eternal punishment for non believers.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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My experience with teenagers indicates that the demise of theism, as well as its bastard children of science denial, bigotry, and sexual shame, is accelerating quite rapidly.
The kids are, indeed, alright.
We'll need to die off to make room for the Age of Enlightenment 2.0 first, of course.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Today's teenagers are making up their minds now.
Different generation.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Speaking of diversity, interesting differences in what constitutes Christ-like behavior among the believers here. On the positive example side, I give you Blue. On the negative example side....
Christian in name but not action: a common affliction.
John, the pastor at the shelter, is a great example. He just quietly and gently goes about fighting the good fight, day by day. Few words, plenty action. Differences in belief among people mean little to him. I'm an atheist, he knows it, and he simply doesn't care.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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We'll need to die off to make room for the Age of Enlightenment 2.0 first, of course.
Yeah, this part really sucks. The party goes on but we have to leave. :(
Whenever I start feeling sorry for myself (or my kindred spirits) though I remember it could've been worse. Much worse. I could've been born in Germany 1530s, say, amidst the Münster Rebellion, that would've really sucked.
Ouch.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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The paradigm has been 'teach our children well', but I find the learning goes just as much the other way these days.
Of course, I never tell them that :D
But what do I know?
After all, I'm a tribeless d#@&%e (Delite? Doodle? Dradle? Dacite?)
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