Rancher +Militia vs BLM,trouble on the range.(OT)

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Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:36am PT

And since when is Supertopo a court of justice?

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:36am PT

Better to be dead than have a professional investigation of whether those sexual assaults occured or not, is that your position Ken?

Actually, inasmuch as I doubt that you've been involved in such investigations, and I have, I'm wondering what you would do when you went to do that, and you were met with guns. How long would you "negotiate" while the likely rapes are happening? How many months? How many rapes? How many children?

share your wisdom as to what professionals should do.

John M

climber

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:36am PT

Of course Bruce, but this is not a court of law and few people like to sit on trail, even as a witness and be led by the nose.

crankster

Trad climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:39am PT

The facts are indisputable. Since 1993, Bundy has refused to pay grazing fees for his use of 600,000 acres of PUBLIC land. The kook doesn't recognize the authority of the federal government to administer the lands. In 2013, a federal court ordered him to remove his cattle from the land or they would be confiscated to pay off the $1 million in fees and trespassing fines. He ignored them and confiscation of the cows began last week, before being halted because the BLM wanted to avoid a "range war" with armed militia and other domestic terrorists.

Side with the anti-government extremists? What the f*#k is the matter with you?

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:39am PT

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment allows the citizenry to be armed equivalently to the military for the reason Jan so succinctly stated above. To be able to resist a government perceived by the citizenry as bullies or tyrants. The militarization of various regulatory agencies is flat out WRONG.

Armed men are Citizens, but you Frostbacks up in Canada, are SUBJECTS.

I PHRASED IT THIS WAY TO AVOID ANY AMBIGUITY OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING WHY THE OLD WHITE DUDES WERE PACKING HEAVY. If the Feds had started the shooting, they would have died. Right. There.

crankster

Trad climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:43am PT

Seek mental help, brokedown. Fast. In Canada it would be free.

John M

climber

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:46am PT

The other violates civil order.

Interesting discussion. One I have not been involved in in a long time.

I disagree with this statement. Civil order can come about because the majority of people, though armed, believe in civil order.

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:52am PT

Well Bruce, I think one of the positives that will come out of this is that yes, a few more Americans will come out of their shopping mall and tv induced torpor and think about these issues and discuss them with friends.

And I do like your characterization of either conclusion - cops with overwhelming firepower or citizens with more than the cops, to be an unpalatable dilemma.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:55am PT

I very well understand what Bruce is getting at, but it doesn't set well here in the USA or anywhere else when carried to the extremes he's suggesting. When Government and Police have the monopoly of force, it's called a POLICE STATE. Yes. the Average American likes to think his home is his castle. That's the difference in heritage, I guess?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:55am PT

In his own words Bundy has stated he doesn't believe there is any federal land in the state of Nevada. Anyone agreeing with or defending that point of view is a complete idiot. It seldom gets any simpler than this.

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Apr 15, 2014 - 01:57am PT

This whole situation has already gone way beyond the specifics of Bundy. He's just a symbol at this point of a much larger discontent. Governments ignore populist symbols at their peril.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:02am PT

Yes, a discontent that is the specific product of a forty year campaign of division and hate run by guys like Atwater, Reed, and Rove. What we're seeing now is simply what you'd expect after deliberately radicalizing the Republican party. You can't move the Republican party this far to the right without creating a violence-prone far right. It's already now out of Rove's control and, like Atwater on his deathbed, one day he'll regret his actions.

John M

climber

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:04am PT

The armed ones, you may have noticed, do not believe in civil order. That is the whole problem. They are subverting the rule of law by way of threat of force.

At first I agreed with this, but I'm not certain that I accept this anymore. What you are saying is that they should just accept whatever the government decides, even the courts. But what if the courts are wrong.

And yes, the consequences are extreme, so of course one should make certain that they are right. have these people? considering all the extreme things that they have said, I kind of doubt it. But it is still their right to show up armed.

I was shopping this past year in Oakhurst Ca and some folks were saying that because Obama was going to take all of their guns away that a civil war was about to start. I walked up to them and told them that I couldn't help but overhear them. I told them that I had voted for obama and did not believe that he would try to take away all of their guns. I then asked them which one of them planned to shoot me should a civil war "break out". I was trying to remind them that these were people they were talking about killing. Their neighbors.

Something that perhaps the government has forgotten in this case, that this was someone's livelihood that was taken away.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:04am PT

Maybe it's as simple as an objection to the BLM managing 87% of the land in Nevada.

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:05am PT

Healeyje, I think it goes back further than that (Chaz is right on the mark with the 87%) but I don't disagree with what you've said. On the other hand, Waco happened under Clinton.

John M

climber

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:05am PT

Yes, a discontent that is the specific product of a forty year campaign of division and hate run by guys like Atwater, Reed, and Rove. What we're seeing now is simply what you'd expect after deliberately radicalizing the Republican party. You simply can't move the Republican party this far to the right without creating a violence-prone far right. It's already now out of Rove's control

I agree with this..

Edit: but I also see an overreaching government.

John M

climber

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:09am PT

On the other hand, Waco happened under Clinton.

Waco is not an example of an overreaching government. Waco is an example of an ignorant government faced with a radical extremist.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:09am PT

None of your guns will ever stop the government should they decide to take action against the people. Shut down the gas pipelines, control food distribution and water supply and it's over in a week. I mean, really, how many fat f*#ks with guns are going to walk to a conflict?

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Apr 15, 2014 - 02:09am PT

Jan certainly speaks better than I in getting to the whole point of things; whether Bundy is right or wrong is no longer the issue; he's the symbolic red herring. If there is anything to the grab of his land for any other purpose, there will be consequences.

I sympathize with him for the simple reason of not wishing to change his lifestyle at his age. None of us have facts beyond those provided by some second hand source of information. For all I know, he could be a raving lunatic, but I don't think so. He sees his way of life vanishing and the legacy of his forebears being trashed. That has steeled his resolve into this position.