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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
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"The tsunami made it all the way across the Pacific and we occasionally get
dust from Mongolia deposited on the snow turning it red so the idea that
radioactive particles can also make it across is reasonable. Will they?"
We don't know, of course.
I would suggest that each person do what they feel is best for themselves(so long as it does not involve abusing the freedoms of another, of course). For some, this may mean a trip to a further inland region - just in case. For some, stocking up on water, foods, fuel and such. For some, something different.
It makes rational sense to be wondering how this will affect us, but for myself, I have real difficulty thinking of myself at this point, since not only are my options limited(I can't hoard, moving would be difficult, etc.), but the overwhelming difficulty the Japanese are having right now is paramount. My energy must go into sending thoughts of compassion and strength to those suffering. This is the best use of my resources, and though some would say it is too ephemeral and of no physical help, it is what I can do.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
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stzzo,
Yes, this is a tough one. Most, like (well over) 99%, of buildings structurally will survive the EQ, but all of them will have deadly crap falling off the sides, and a lot of people will die when a brick or a window hits them in the head.
Of course, if I were in one of those garages under an apartment building in Berkeley, I'd probably run like hell, unless I knew it had been retrofitted. Or, if I were in Istanbul, I might also run.
Best strategy - check on the retrofit status of any apartment you plan to rent, try to avoid the ones that are unsafe. (wood frames houses are, in general, very safe, assuming your bookshelf doesn't fall on your head, or in the case of a friend of mine in Northridge, a bike, bike rack, bookshelf, and a table saw blade falling on the guest bed, empty thankfully.)
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
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The radioactive materials in the vented steam (vented to relieve pressure in the secondary containment vessel) is mostly what you get from bombarding air and water with neutrons. These are very short-lived (half-life of seconds) isotopes of light elements, mostly nitrogen. Using sea water as a coolant adds some other stuff into the mix, but by and large, this is not so dangerous unless you are right there at the release point and time (and those folks working at the plant are for sure very courageous heros). That is why they are measuring the radiation spikes. The rapid lowering of radiation levels after a venting has more to do with the quick depletion of radioactive isotopes than it does with the volume dilution of the vented material.
It will get very dangerous if the so-far contained heavier radioactive nuclei start to become part of the mix.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 16, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
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The radioactive materials in the vented steam (vented to relieve pressure in the secondary containment vessel) is mostly what you get from bombarding air and water with neutrons... Not likely, as they also vented steam from the Rx vessel, and since we know for certain that the fuel has been damaged, there are fission products mixed in with the steam vented from the vessel to the torus.
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crøtch
climber
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Mar 16, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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Forgive me if this has already been asked, but does the fact that Boron is being added to the cooling water imply that there is worry that the fuel will reach criticality?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 16, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
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I love how all the lab-coats are saying not so bad.
This fuking thing is a total runaway monster.
All while the lab coats still try and maintain it's not .....
They are at the total mercy of providence at this point and the workers are sacrificing their lives to try and avert a total catastrophe to the entire Japanese country.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Mar 16, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
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U.S. Calls Radiation ‘Extremely High’ and Urges Deeper Caution in Japan
DigitalGlobe, via Reuters
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission gave a significantly bleaker appraisal of threat posed by the Japanese nuclear crisis than the Japanese government, saying on Wednesday that the damage at one crippled reactor was much more serious than Japanese officials had acknowledged and advising to Americans to evacuate a wider area around the plant than ordered by the Japanese government.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/world/asia/17nuclear.html
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Mar 16, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
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From the same article
Mr. Jaczko’s testimony came as the American Embassy, on advice from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, told American to evacuate a radius of “approximately 50 miles” from the Fukushima plant.
The advice represents a far more grave assessment of the situation at the stricken reactors than the decisions made by the Japanese themselves, who have told everyone within 20 kilometers, about 12 miles, to evacuate, and those between 20 and 30 kilometers to take shelter. And the recommendation comes as the Japanese government has said it will be giving less information about the situation.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 16, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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Pentagon preparing for a nuclear worst-case scenario at Fukushima
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4773885
http://www.stripes.com/news/http-www-stripes-com-news-pentagon-preparing-for-a-nuclear-worst-case-scenario-at-fukushima-1-1379-1.137969
Pentagon preparing for a nuclear worst-case scenario at Fukushima
By Chris Carroll
Stars and Stripes
Published: March 16, 2011
WASHINGTON — If the deteriorating situation at a Japanese nuclear plant veers toward a worst-case meltdown scenario, people across the country — including 86,000 American servicemembers, civilian employees and their dependents — could face an unprecedented atomic disaster.
The Pentagon on Wednesday began laying out precautions to keep troops safe, announcing a 50-mile no-go zone around the unstable Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex that is wider than the official Japanese evacuation zone. The U.S. Embassy in Japan told American citizens within 50 miles of the plant to evacuate if possible or stay indoors.
Meanwhile, military doctors began advising U.S. air crews flying rescue missions within 80 miles of the stricken complex to take potassium iodide tablets to combat harmful radiation effects. Already, troops on some bases in Japan and aboard ships offshore — including two air crew members on the USS Ronald Reagan who had to take iodide tablets Tuesday — have been exposed to radiation from the nuclear plants, although at levels not believed high enough to pose a serious risk.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Mar 16, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
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Gregory Jaczko, the chairman of the commission, said in Congressional testimony that the commission believed that all the water in the spent fuel pool at the No. 4 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station had boiled dry, leaving fuel rods stored there completely exposed. As a result, he said, “We believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures.”
If his analysis is accurate and Japanese workers have been unable to keep the spent fuel at that inoperative reactor properly cooled — covered with water at all times — radiation could make it difficult not only to fix the problem at reactor No. 4, but to keep workers at the Daiichi complex from servicing any of the other crippled reactors at the plant.
Mr. Jaczko said radiation levels may make it impossible to continue what he called the “backup backup” cooling functions that have so far prevented full nuclear meltdowns at the other reactors. Those efforts consist of dumping water on overheated fuel and then letting the radioactive steam vent into the atmosphere.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 16, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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A ray of Hope:
FUKUSHIMA, Japan – A nearly completed new power line could restore cooling systems in Japan's tsunami-crippled nuclear power plant, its operator said Thursday, raising some hope of easing the crisis that has threatened a meltdown and already spawned dangerous radiation surges.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 16, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
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Sometimes the characters on this site remind me of the little green buses stopping in El Cap Meadow. They have created a taffic hazard and may get hit by swerving RV's and are oblivious to everything except for thinking that climbers must be idiots for risking their lives up there. In other words they are clueless. Clueless to teh hazards they create, cluless to the risks that climbers may or may not be taking up on the big stone.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 16, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
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Speaking of dying, it seemed rather apparent to me(although i hoped i was wrong)after day one coverage of this catastrophe, that the death toll was being grossly underestimated by the Japanese authorities...
From what I gather, all that I have seen has been 'confirmed' deaths, as in bodies counted, and/or identified. If you think about it for a second, "death toll" means a 'count of the dead'.
And what will any of those links tell us that we don't already know?
Werner is right.....
Lab coats are wrong at every turn here....posting nuclear doctrine and then getting stuck on their programming and running a return loop....does not compute.....does not compute.....it is safe....it is safe....this can not happen...happen...happen...
I see this sh#t everyday as Werner does also.....education , lack of judgement, an inability to think and programed tunnel vision and it all amounts to getting it wrong..
What the hell is this power company still doing charge of this mess? Where is the international atomic agency? Where is the back up plan for this sh#t? Are you kidding me?
You can not have a system in which a mistake is not an option and then expect the people in that system to respond in any appropriate way when a mistake does happen.
Send the big boys in...
So, who would 'the big boys' be? Since it's not the 'lab coats', I assume you prefer people who do not understand the science of it? Or, perhaps ones who understand no science at all?
Who do you suggest? Larry 'The Cable Guy'? 'Cause he'd, git 'er done!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 16, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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Riley is obviously upset, as many of us are. Earthquake, Tsunami, Nuclear Disaster (the first time I have used the D word for that), people without adequate food, shelter, water. I think everyone wants the best for the Japanese. Just so everyone understands the Nuclear Reactor issues will not be stable for many days. It will take months to figure out exactly what happened.
It is however, important that people put the Nuclear Events into context. With 45% of our energy coming from Coal, how many of us worry about that?
Try this on for size and use a rational approach to our energy decisions.
The Lung Association’s report reveals the real public health threat from coal-fired power plants.
Coal-fired power plants that sell electricity to the grid produce more hazardous air pollution in the U.S. than any other industrial pollution sources.
More than 400 coal-fired power plants located in 46 states across the country release more that 386,000 tons of hazardous air pollutants into the atmosphere each year.
Particle pollution from power plants is estimated to kill approximately 13,000 people a year.
“Power plant pollution kills people,” said Charles D. Connor, President and CEO of the American Lung Association. “It threatens the brains and nervous system of children. It can cause cancer, heart attacks and strokes.
“It’s time that we end the ‘toxic loophole’ that has allowed coal-burning power plants to operate without any federal limits on emissions of mercury, arsenic, dioxin, acid gases such as hydrogen chloride and other dangerous pollutants,” said Charles D. Connor, president and CEO of the American Lung Association.
“People living closest to these plants, especially children, seniors, pregnant women and those with chronic disease face the greatest risk, but it doesn’t stop there. Pollution from coal-fired power plants takes flight and travels far into other states—threatening public health.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/14/power-plant-air-pollution-coal-kills_n_833385.html
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 16, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
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Also, the fact that this involves radiation, and many just don't understand the details of it, brings out a LOT of fear in people... But the FACT is, thus far, the Deep Water Horizon that exploded, killed 11 people, and dumped MILLIONS of barrels of oil into the Gulf, desimating the ecosystem of several states, and ruined the lives of countless people and businesses, most of which have not recovered, and likely never will, is worse than what is happening at Fuku. Fuku has killed how many? It has significantly contaminated how much? Again, what are the facts? Everybody is speculating all the what if's, but is important is WHAT has happened, and is continuing to happen. The vast majority of these what if's will likely never be realized. (E.g., global contamination; the public getting cancer; etc...) Even the 'speculated' lethal doses that the volunteers working at Fuku will recieve, are just that, speculation of worst case scenarios. Until we see actual dose rates recieved, from their TLDs, we won't know.
So, to those with pitch-forks and torches for nuclear energy, did you also rally just as much for no more drilling? As that one event was far more damaging to the environment than was Chernobyl.
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Mad
Social climber
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Mar 16, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
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If we strive to keep seeing the beauty of what life is, everything that is a result of our exploration, has after effects...and all we can do is learn from the experience...no matter the depth and breadth of our current knowledge. And what is knowledge? It is the lesson learned...and what we do with it is up to us as individuals. We take care of each other. The earth is just being itself...it is not intentionally out to get us..it is doing what it does.....so what do we do in response? Keep learning and help one another.
MAD
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Mar 16, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
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The European Union's energy chief, Guenther Oettinger, told the European Parliament that the plant was "effectively out of control" after breakdowns in the facility's cooling system.
"In the coming hours there could be further catastrophic events, which could pose a threat to the lives of people on the island," Oettinger said.
"There is as yet no panic, but Tokyo with 35 million people, is the largest metropolis in the world," he said.
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