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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Yeah GO this thread seems to have legs. Interesting new viewpoints are appearing.
Earlier I had tried to point out data was being handled really badly in the good/bad christian business. The same thing showed up again.
Anytime you edit the data so it proves your already formed conclusion you throw away the single most important thing in your life.
The chance to learn and to become better.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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Well they do answers the question,
No, they don't. If the question was "Gobee, what do you think god said about this, or that?" then quoting the bible would indeed be a reasonable way to answer.
However, when the question is "On what do you base your belief that the bible is authoritative?" or, "Why do you believe the bible is the word of god?" or something similar, then quoting the bible not only doesn't answer the question, it is extremely rude. When you do that, you are effectively saying "I don't know, but I'm just going take up your time with a non-answer anyway."
So, could you please think twice before you just dump more verbiage into the thread? I think we'd all be better off. Your own thoughts that actually address questions asked are appreciated. Bible bombs are not.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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I can't prove how the sun got there , but there it is!
Same with the Bible, but you say I can't prove the Bible with the Bible, it's truths still ring true, prove me wrong!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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"If he claims to be Christian, of course! You would deny Jesus from him, deny his chance at salvation? What kind of a Christian does that make you?"
Come on, GOclimb, you suggested Patrick was puposely misinterpreting my post....now you're doing the same thing !
I'm not questioning anyone's salvation or posturing my own christianity. I posted that you cannot make a valid study about Christian or atheist ethics or crime by counting heads in a prison. I've posted why those studies were spurious, I'm not going over it again.
My remarks were in the context of those invalid studies....now you're suggesting I want to deny peoples chances at salvation and keep them from Jesus.....and you tell me I don't read very well?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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Is that a shot from your own medicine cabinet, Locker?
You gonna be looking for a renter?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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I talk to my cat a lot. She seems generally supportive, and talking to her helps me marshall my thoughts.
Now, you may say "What kind of dork thinks talking to his cat is of any value?" But at least my cat is real. You can come over and see her. Touch her, even. So whether or not talking to my cat is a sign that I'm weak, at least it isn't a sign that I'm... well... you know...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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"I've never seen God write a book. I've never met anyone who claims to have seen God write a book, unless they were heavily medicated."
The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.”
And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Well it's true...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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God said "Moses kill me a son"
Moses said, "God stick it up highway sixty woun!"
or similar.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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Come on, GOclimb, you suggested Patrick was puposely misinterpreting my post....now you're doing the same thing !
If I'm misinterpreting your view, I'm certainly not doing it on purpose. I happen to think that your view contains a self-contradiction of which you're unaware. I can understand how you might disavow yourself of that contradiction, but I think it's quite real. But perhaps I'm mistaken.
Do you, or do you not, consider that if someone says they are a Christian, that they are? That it is a matter of the heart, which you and I are not in a place to judge - that it's between that individual and their God?
If so, then the numbers are the numbers. I never claimed you can get anything meaningful from those numbers. Quite the opposite. I know of no way to get any kind of causality between faith and good (or bad) deeds. But that's where you and I really seem to differ. Because you believe in a causal relationship between faith in Jesus and good behavior, you deny these criminals their faith. I think that's a despicable hypocrasy, and only serves to exclude data which happens to be against your preconceived notion.
I'm not questioning anyone's salvation or posturing my own christianity. I posted that you cannot make a valid study about Christian or atheist ethics or crime by counting heads in a prison. I've posted why those studies were spurious, I'm not going over it again.
And I think that counting heads is worth exactly what it's worth. It doesn't prove causality, but it does prove correlation.
My remarks were in the context of those invalid studies....now you're suggesting I want to deny peoples chances at salvation and keep them from Jesus.....and you tell me I don't read very well?
Yeah. I don't think that's what you're setting out to do, but that's the result. So, you explain to me in your own words what these "non Christians" are then? Pretenders? Fakers? Riiiighht.
Like I said - IMO Christians are Christians if they say they are.
GO
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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Wes, imho those cannot be jesus followers.....and shouldn't a christian be a jesus follower ?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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The so called "Christians" maintain huge mechanized industrial slaughterhouses.
Killing millions of animals yearly, particularly the cow, which is the mother of the earth, to satisfy the senses.
They said Jesus meant, murder, not killing.
The commandment said: Thou shalt not kill.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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lol that. Best pitch I ever heard.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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and I am Satan cuz I said so.
Sorry, trolling on the internet does not exactly qualify you to be Satan. You need to step it up a few notches.
God doesn't know the difference between words and actions.
I didn't say that. In fact, in many religions, your actions or your birth may define you as in or out. Not so with Christianity. It's one of the peculiarities of the religion, and perhaps part of what made it so successful. So far as I can tell, what makes you a Christian is "what you feel in your heart".
Fattrad - you ever hear a Rabbi say that if a goy (non-jew) believes in Jehovah in his heart, that makes him a Jew? It's preposterous! And if a Jew lives a selfish, petty life, but believes in Jehovah, that makes him a mensch (a good Jew)? No way! But hey, different strokes for different folks. So if them's the rules the Christians want to live by, I think they should be held to their own rules.
GO
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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"I think they should be held to their own rules."
They are. Here.
In the next world you're on your own...
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jstan
climber
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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Lynne:
http://www.kkk.com/
America, Our Nation is Under Judgement from God!
"There is a race war against whites. But our people - my white brothers and sisters - will stay committed to a non-violent resolution. That resolution must consist of solidarity in white communities around the world. The hatred for our children and their future is growing and is being fueled every single day. Stay firm in your convictions. Keep loving your heritage and keep witnessing to others that there is a better way than a war torn, violent, wicked, SOCIALIST, new world order. That way is the Christian way - law and order - love of family - love of nation. These are the principles of western Christian civilization. There is a war to destroy these things. Pray that our people see the error of their ways and regain a sense of loyalty. Repent America! Be faithful my fellow believers. "
National Director of The Knights
Pastor Thomas Robb
End Quote
Note:
I am responsible for capitalizing the word "socialist" in the above. In the original it was cursef.
I thought it showing up here to be curious.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Uhhh, guess they haven't heard that jesus is strong on two things.....Love god and Love your neighbor....who is your neighbor? everyone. Christian's must be jesus followers according to the definition.....roughly, of Christ. jess sayin'.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Wes, the KKK was never a Christian organization, and despite their antisemitism, religion was never a core part of the organization.
They were basically a disorganized group of mobs with a political agenda of disenfranchising blacks and fighting the democratic party in the south.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Oops - just read JStan's post above. I guess the KKK is branching out these days. Well, that's not surprising - I guess if you want to hate those towelheads, religion is as good a method as any to tar them as "other".
GO
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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Five years old, my mother and the Catholic priest told me that only children
who are baptized in the Christian faith can go to heaven.
I asked what happens to all the other kids in the world who aren't baptized. They told me they would have to sit in a moderately bad place
named Purgatory forever, cause no way would they be allowed in heaven.
I turned atheist that same day, refused to ever again go to church,
and damn near got thrown out of the house. It was 1955.
I have not changed my opinion since then.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Wrong Skip, atheism is the perfect "religion" for all ages.
I just figured it out earlier than most.
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