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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Jan 26, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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Dr. F i have not called you a name,
or your friends,
but you resort to calling names.
Character assasination of me might be accurate in some areas,
but,
you think the guys in Libya,
or in Death Valley were my friends because you don't like the data?
I really am just not that old, sorry, i was not alive when it was that hot.
and Dr.F in your statistical prowess surely you know that indicies of trends are not just the averages? if no, then is the variability getting cooler? or, is there an irregularity in how the data was gathered?
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Jan 26, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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Karl,
you are right the glaciers are melting.
The continental ice sheet used to cover Canada,
and terminated, among other places at Manhattan island.
But we can't blame Bush , or Lincoln, for it.
and yes we have the responsibility to not pollute,
I ride the bus to work except when it's raining,
in the last 4 months I have driven about 12 times...
that is doing our part.
but cap and trade or Al Gore, no.
ed it
and Mr. Babba, while it is true that glaciers are melting, it is also true that they lied about data and a study, there were no data gathered, there was no study at all, how bad does the "science" have to be before you take a look at what you think and say, hmmmm, maybe there are other variables, other factors, and maybe, just maybe, we know a little less than that which we are so rabidly sure of. I am not saying there is no global warming, i am saying we do not have even the means to measure how much a part of it man has played, and, to say we know for sure is politics, not science.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Jan 26, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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Dirt,
I know what drives Bill Patzert, money.
I acknowledge Michael Griffin, the head of NASA, might be correct.
But, he can't talk about it because the issue is so political.
watch Richard Lindzen address this subject:
http://sciencestage.com/v/2715/mit-climatologist-richard-lindzen-on-the-politics-of-global-warming.html
another ed it:
Bill Patzert is a good guy.
and, Richard Lindzen is very, very qualified.
ed it 2
Dr. F. don't assume Dr. Lindzen is my friend please, so don't embarrass yourself by calling him an idiot. please stop thinking you know all, and open yourself to the possibility that those in a position to profit, have put one over on you.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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Karl!
if all those people are dependent on glacial meltw#ter as runoff for their water supply, good thing we don't have global cooling!, can you imagine,??? advancing glaciation, no runoff, no water supply! whew, good thing we have global warming or millions would die of thirst!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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open yourself to the possibility that those in a position to profit, have put one over on you.
Are you open to this possibility as well?
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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EB, your understanding of science is so woefully inadequate that you are not able to discuss this.
When scientists tell you yosemite was carved by glaciers, you believe them.
When the same scientists tell you that man can cause warming by releasing co2 into the atmosphere, you don't.
You don't have the ability to pick and choose what you believe and what you don't on a scientific level, must be political.
Why don't you just be honest and say you don't give a sh#t, global warming matters less to you than a growing america.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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all i said was we don't know...
but it seems all on the global warming alarmist side all claim to know for sure.
what about, dynamic equilibrium...
on a larger scale than perhaps we comprehend, or have the capacity to measure?
why are there no discussions about cyclical variability, and what the earth is going to do, it is going to do, and.. at the same time, i hear none of you match what i do "for the environment" by riding public transportation.... strange isn't it?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 26, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
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why are there no discussions about cyclical variability
Ed, there are thousands of discussions about cyclical variability all over the climate-research literature.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Jan 28, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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If there has been one good thing about the economic recession of the last couple of years, it is that cap-and-trade legislation (or even back-door regulation/taxation of CO2 by the EPA) is a lot less likely to happen now. That will compel everyone (that means you) to wait and see whether any of the various doomsday scenarios out there is really starting to come to fruition.
Do I believe that Earth is warming and that human carbon output is the primary culprit? I really don't know--it's possible. But what I definitely do not find credible is the assertion that we are at a tipping point and must do something drastic immediately to avoid rendering the planet uninhabitable. I am interested to see whether these climate models are any more accurate in their predictions of what will happen in the next ten years than they were about what would happen in the last ten years--or if they will have to be tweaked further to make the data appear to fit the hyperbole...uh, hypothesis.
We'll see--the rest is just bluster at this point.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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Some of you will really like this one :-)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/new-bin-laden-tape-blasts-us-on-climate-change/article1448701/
New bin Laden tape blasts U.S. on climate change
Al-Qaeda leader calls for boycott of American goods, U.S. dollar in new recording aired on Al-Jazeera
Cairo — The Associated Press
Published on Friday, Jan. 29, 2010 6:59AM EST
Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has called for the world to boycott American goods and the U.S. dollar, blaming the United States and other industrialized countries for global warming, according to a new audiotape released Friday.
In the tape, broadcast in part on Al-Jazeera television, Mr. bin Laden warned of the dangers of climate change and says that the way to stop it is to bring “the wheels of the American economy” to a halt.
He blamed Western industrialized nations for hunger, desertification and floods across the globe, and called for “drastic solutions” to global warming, and “not solutions that partially reduce the effect of climate change.”
Mr. bin Laden has mentioned climate change and global warning in past messages, but the latest tape was his first dedicated to the topic. The speech, which included almost no religious rhetoric, could be an attempt by the terror leader to give his message an appeal beyond Islamic militants.
The al-Qaeda leader also targeted the U.S. economy in the recording, calling for a boycott of American products and an end to the dollar's domination as a world currency.
“We should stop dealings with the dollar and get rid of it as soon as possible,” he said. “I know that this has great consequences and grave ramifications, but it is the only means to liberate humanity from slavery and dependence on America.”
He argued that such steps would also hamper Washington's war efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The new message, whose authenticity could not immediately be confirmed, comes after a bin Laden tape released last week in which he endorsed a failed attempt to blow up an American airliner on Christmas Day.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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I am interested to see whether these climate models are any more accurate in their predictions of what will happen in the next ten years than they were about what would happen in the last ten years
Actually, if you look at the previous predictions from whay might be considered the high-profile, serious scientist (such as Hansen from NASA), they have done quite well.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/12/updates-to-model-data-comparisons/
And things have generally been worse than the IPCC predictions.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
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I think you need to be careful to separate the science from the economics. A lot of the attacks here on climate science would be better directed at proposed remedies, which is really climate economics. Despite the Climategate issues, the science has generally been honest, open, and properly peer-reviewed.
John
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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And, as August notes, where scientific expectations have been wrong, it has often been on the low side, not the high. Arctic Ocean ice, Greenland mass balance, sea level rise, hydrological cycle effects, and shrubification of tundra are some cases in point -- all now observed to be changing faster than consensus predictions from half a decade back.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
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Ah, yes. James Hansen--now there's a credible source for you! The comparison of AGW advocacy to religious dogma has been overworked and has grown a little trite, but when people start claiming that contrary evidence doesn't exist, or that such evidence only serves to underscore the validity of the original proposition, it's difficult not to make that connection. (Hansen is like the pope of AGW advocacy, and I don't mean that as a compliment.)
It reminds me of President Obama's statement that Scott Brown's recent election in Massachusetts is emblematic of the same discontent that swept him into office in 2008. (So, the election of a Republican to Ted Kennedy's senate seat in the People's Republic, like everything else, can be pinned on George W. Bush?) Why let facts get in the way of ideology?
In ten years, I think it's as likely as not that that all the Chicken Littles will have found a new cause to advocate. But that's always been the beauty of being an environmental activist--rather than admit you're wrong, you simply move on to the next ecological chimera du jour.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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In ten years, I think it's as likely as not that that all the Chicken Littles will have found a new cause to advocate.
Another possibility is that in ten years the actual climate will have changed quite a bit further.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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I'm the first to admit that I don't understand the details of the science, but I do understand the relevant politics. Hansen and his ilk treat dissenters like heretics and try to "excommunicate" them from the discussion, which should raise red flags for anyone inclined to make momentous policy decisions based on his (and, by extension, the IPCC's) contentions. (I certainly wouldn't bet virtually all economic growth, and the very future of this country, on it.) Nothing climate-related could be as certain as Hansen tries to make it sound, and, thankfully, the wind (metaphorically and otherwise) seems to be leaving the sails of those who would use CO2 as a pretext for massive regulation/taxation and unaccountable global governance. As for the actual science, I don't trust the majority opinion, because I think most of the doomsayers have an ideological (never mind financial) dog in the fight, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong. We will, indeed, see.
On a lighter note, some wag noted that the biggest difference between Al Gore and Osama bin Laden, when it comes to global warming, is that the latter, by living in a cave, does more than talk the talk!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
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gazela:
I'm the first to admit that I don't understand the details of the science, but I do understand the relevant politics.
That's a pretty clear statement of the view. Who needs to understand details of the science, when your politics supply all the answers?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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Hmmm......Gazela Vs Ed and Larry....should be good for a laugh.
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