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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Just like the Third Reich's retribution for the futility of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising."
there you go again, philo, with your odious comparisons...the jews in warsaw did not have their own state with their own sovereign government; they weren't free to develop industry, agriculture, and trade; they weren't free to build schools and hospitals; they weren't free to receive money and other aid from the world (including, most generously, america)...see, for the jews in warsaw, an uprising was their ONLY chance for SURVIVAL; their uprising did not target innocent german civilians; they were not calling for the destruction of germany or seeking the elimination of the german people (or even christians or muslims)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"there you go again, philo, with your odious comparisons"
So let me see if I have this straight BookWorm. You don't care about the horrific actions of the IDF. Or the more than 100 to 1 disparity in kill ratio. Or the reality that so many of their actions have been correctly labeled war crimes by the world (excluding US). You are specifically upset my the audacity of anyone daring to link the words Nazi and Israel. A few on the TacoStand have absolutely no hesitation to spew forth with the insidious term "IslamoFacists. That's OK because Muslims are not real humans like we are right. But God forbid anyone should intimate the correlation NazRaelis. Well I didn't say it first. It was first brought to world attention by prominent Jews who were deeply troubled by the direction Israel was headed.
Prominent Jewish survivors of WW2 like Albert Einstein. But that no nothing lunatic fool is dead so no use kicking him in the balls. Not when philo is such a convenient target. Bookworm the correlation between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto is closer than you dare accept. In fact one of the bigger differences is that the Jews of the Ghetto had much greater freedom of movement than the Arabs of Gaza. It was what allowed them to stage as effective of an uprising as they did. The lessons of that freedom of movement were not lost on the Eastern European Jews who survived and founded Israel. Which is why they impose such draconian restrictions on Palestinian movement these days. Besides it is so much easier to shoot fish in a barrel anyway.
So Bookworm, tho the shoe fits well enough and it was first commented on by Jews in the know, You get in-sensed if anyone dares to put those five syllables together.
Well you know I get at least as in-sensed when some ST posters cheer for more killing of Arabs. I am just putting words together. They are calling for ethnic cleansing and genocide. Who should you really be upset with?
"There are only two lasting bequests we can give our children. One is roots; the other, wings." Hodding Carter
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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who is calling for ethnic cleansing and genocide? ah yes, hamas and hezbollah and iran and a few others...do i want the killing to stop? yes...do i hope the israelis never again kill a single arab (or anyone else)? yes...i also believe that israel--and every other nation--has a right and an obligation to protect itself from enemies, especially enemies who attack EVERY SINGLE DAY, especially enemies who specifically target civilians while intentionally endangering their own people by using them as shields
what are the options?
1. hamas/hezbollah could accept israel's right to exist, commit themselves to peaceful relations (or, at least, peaceful indifference) with a democratic and prosperous neighbor, and stop ALL attacks
OR
2. israel can wipe out hamas, destroy hamas' ability to attack and reorganize/re-arm
chances for success? probably zero
why? because hamas will never do the first and because israel will stop before they achieve success because of pressure not only from the world but also from critics (including jews) inside their own government
who has always honored cease-fires, truces, treaties? that would be israel...what do they get in return? that would be more bombs and rockets...
your comparisons are odious because they are simplistic: killing = nazis...by your standards, lincoln, fdr, and truman were nazis because they understood the only way to achieve lasting peace was by destroying the enemy
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Mr. Sharansky, former deputy prime minister of Israel, is chairman of the Adelson Institute for Strategic Studies at the Shalem Center and the author, most recently, of "Defending Identity" (PublicAffairs, 2008).
No personal bias in those words. No rhetorical agenda in the choice of verbiage either.
I think this guy will have a great career as a ME political analyst on FOX.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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'who has always honored cease-fires, truces, treaties?'
You say Israel.
Now you are in the delusional-shill category.
How many UN resolutions have the Israelis ignored?
What did Israel do on Nov 4/5 2008?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053138.html
Last update - 18:42 06/01/2009
40 Palestinians killed in IDF strike on UN school
By News Agencies
Tags: Israel News, Hamas, Gaza
Israel Defense Forces tank fire killed up to 40 Palestinians at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, medical sources at two hospitals said.
The attack brought the Palestinian death toll to nearly 600 in Israel's 11-day offensive on the Hamas-ruled coastal territory.
Advertisement
Two tank shells exploded outside the Gaza school, spraying shrapnel on people inside and outside the building, where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge from fighting between Israeli soldiers and Hamas militants. In addition to the dead, several dozen people were wounded, the officials said.
Medical officials said all the dead were either people sheltering in the school or local residents.
Also on Tuesday, Israel Air Force warplanes struck a building in Gaza in which the head of Hamas' rocket division was staying. It was not immediately clear whether Ayman Sayam was hit in the attack, which occurred in the Jabalya refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip.
"There's nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorized and traumatized," said John Ging, the top UN official in Gaza, blaming the international community for allowing the violence to continue.
"I am appealing to political leaders here and in the region and the world to get their act together and stop this," he said, speaking at Gaza's largest hospital. "They are responsible for these deaths."
The Israel Defense Forces had no comment on the incident, but in the past has accused militants of using schools, mosques and residential neighborhoods to store weapons or launch attacks.
Earlier Tuesday, Palestinian medical officials reported that 10 civilians were killed when a shell fired by an Israeli ship hit their house on the Gaza shore.
Officials in Gaza said at least 20 people were killed in shelling up and down the strip on Tuesday. Only two of the dead could could be immediately confirmed as militants.
United Nations humanitarian chief John Holmes has recently put the Palestinian death toll at 500, with about 125 of them civilians, since Israel launched Operation Cast Lead against Hamas in Gaza.
Gaza health officials, however, have reported that since the offensive began on Dec. 27 more than 550 Palestinians have been killed and 2,500 wounded, including 200 civilians.
Israel's stated goals in the operation are the cessation of Palestinian cross-border rocket fire and the destruction of the Islamist militant group Hamas' infrastructure.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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from the jerusalem post:
Hamas has set up an independent hospital in the Gaza Strip to treat its operatives wounded in fighting with the IDF - and, according to Israeli estimates, it is pilfering a significant portion of the medicine allowed into the Strip, senior defense officials told The Jerusalem Post on Monday.
Despite this estimate, the Defense Ministry said Monday that it would continue facilitating the transfer of food and medical supplies into Gaza. The humanitarian convoys, defense officials said, played a key role in garnering international legitimacy for the IDF's operations in Gaza since it showed the world that Israel distinguished between Hamas terrorists and Palestinian civilians.
On Sunday, Military Intelligence chief Maj.-Gen. Amos Yadlin told the cabinet that Hamas was using mosques, public institutions and private houses as ammunition stores.
On Monday, the Defense Ministry facilitated the transfer of 49 trucks carrying basic foods into the Gaza Strip through the Kerem Shalom crossing. Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, the IDF has allowed some 450 trucks into the Gaza Strip.
Monday's operation was unique since it was the first time that supplies were allowed in since the IDF began its ground offensive inside Gaza and split the strip in half, cutting off the north from the south.
Bezalel Treiber, head of the Defense Ministry's Crossings Directorate, came to Kerem Shalom on Monday to oversee the operations, which included the opening of a humanitarian corridor from Gaza City to Kerem Shalom - located near the Egyptian border - to enable the trucks to travel from southern Gaza to the north.
"We are coordinating with the IDF and were able to open a road to allow the Palestinian workers at the crossing to get there and then travel with the supplies back to Gaza City," Treiber said.
A bus, he said, picked up some 20 Palestinian workers from Gaza City and transported them to Kerem Shalom, where they operated the forklifts and unloaded the supplies transferred into Gaza. Fifty trucks were then allowed into the crossing and a humanitarian corridor was opened in coordination with commanders inside Gaza to enable the supplies to reach Gaza City, where it is to be distributed to different areas in the Strip.
In addition to the supplies, the Defense Ministry also began laying a pipeline from Kerem Shalom on Monday in order to deliver fuel into the Gaza Strip. Fuel is usually transferred via the Nahal Oz fuel depot, which could not be operated on Monday due to terrorism threats.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Is it possible that the veiled reason for this over-reaching distruction IS the expectation that another country(perhaps Iran?), one with the "potential" for having nuclear weapons, might make some overture of assistance to the Palestinians?
If that occurred - especially with our new "preemptive strike" mindset - it would give the US carte blanche to anhialate that country through it's own nuclear arsenal?
It just seems - strange - to me, that if Israel's real intent in this assault was as they say, that their mossad operatives wouldn't be more than capable of of going after the Hamas leaders one on one, instead of what looks very much like an attempt at irradicating the entire population.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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That's not what the most effective, and bedeviling to the Red Coats, guerillas of the American revolutionary war did Fats. Why don't you suggest all the militants resisting Israel's illegal occupation just shoot themselves and save the Americans some tax dollars. You are a fiscal conservative right? Perfect.
This is about resistance to sixty years of inhumane illegal occupation. This is not about any credible threat to Israel's existence. Nor about any suggested inherent lust for Israeli blood on the part of the besieged Palestinians. This is about ending the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"Are you going to post a report about every civilian killed?"
Are we going to hear a report every time an Iranian farts, Jeff?
What I'm tired of hearing is how many Israelis are being treated for "shock".
What a country of pussies.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Philo writes:
"That's not what the most effective, and bedeviling to the Red Coats, guerillas of the American revolutionary war did Fats"
Ever hear of Valley Forge?
You think General Washington chose to winter his Army there because the weather was nice?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"illegal occupation"?
um, israel pulled out of gaza months ago...just like they pulled out of the west bank...just like they pulled out of lebanon
what have they gotten from their appeasement? more attacks from hamas and hezbollah...simple equation: stop attacking israel and israel will stop retaliating
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Philo actually wrote:
"This is about resistance to sixty years of inhumane illegal occupation"
He is rightly identifying the epicenter of this religious/socio/economic/psychological/cultural/human decency conflict.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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There we go an on cue aside from the cast of dumb and dumber. One with a myth the other with a lie. Neither able to prove a thing. Thank God for Brunosafari!
Israel "pulled out" of Gaza And imposed one on the deadliest blockades in history. Systematically strangling the life out of Gaza while never ceasing provocative raids and targeted assassinations. They nevr "pulled out" of the West Bank. And you need to inform your world view with a study of the siege of Hebron. And as for "pulling out" of Lebanon your great humanitarians left behind a vast killing field of hundreds of thousands of absolutely illegal cluster bomblet land mines. More little kids have been killed and maimed by those delightful gestures of neighborliness than in all the rocket attacks combined.
And Dafty how typically disingenuous of you to insist the Palestinians are the one pursuing genocide.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Fattrad isn't that what the words of the founders of Zionism and Israel clearly stated?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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'Isn't that what the Hamas charter calls for and the Gazans voted Hamas in. '
Broken record, and full circle once again.
Why did the people of Gaza vote for Hamass in the free and open elections/
Because fatah was/is corrupt beyond all belief and Hammas was dong the humanitarian work fatah should have.
The humanitarian work that needed to be and to this day still needs to be done to help the people of Gaza just survive the strangle hold Israel has on 'the strip'.
So in all reality Israel continues to make the monster it seeks to destroy so the feign of 'we are the persecuted' can continually be used as justification for what ever goal Israel has.
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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has anyone mentioned Gaza's gas yet?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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To re-quote from earlier in this thread.
Mourid Barghouti, in his 2003 book I Saw Ramallah,
"It is easy to blur the truth with a simple linguistic trick: start
your story from 'Secondly.' Yes, this is what Rabin did. He simply
neglected to speak of what happened first. Start your story with
"Secondly," and the world will be turned upside-down. Start your story
with "Secondly," and the arrows of the Red Indians are the original
criminals and the guns of the white men are entirely the victim. It is
enough to start with "Secondly," for the anger of the black man
against the white to be barbarous. Start with "Secondly," and Gandhi
becomes responsible for the tragedies of the British. You only need to
start your story with "Secondly," and the burned Vietnamese will have
wounded the humanity of the napalm, and Victor Jara's songs will be
the shameful thing and not Pinochet's bullets, which killed so many
thousands in the Santiago stadium. It is enough to start the story
with "Secondly," for my grandmother, Umm 'Ata, to become the criminal
and Ariel Sharon her victim. ...
The houses built on top of ours gallantly declare their willingness to
understand our odd predilection toward living in camps scattered in
the Diaspora of gods and flies, as though we had begged them to throw
us out of our homes and to send their bulldozers to destroy them in
front of our very eyes. Their generous guns in Deir Yassin forgive us
the fact that they piled our bodies high at the sunset hour there one
day. Their fighter jets forgive the graves of our martyrs in Beirut.
Their soldiers forgive the tendency of our teenagers' bones to break.
Israel the victim polishes its hot, red knife with the sheen of
forgiveness."
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