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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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It is all more fun and interesting and useless in a dog chasing his tail kind of way isn't it?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mark, are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it?
In this case critics of the climb have and are leveling explicit and specific accusations at the FAs relative to the 'appropriateness' of any climb in that locale, the nature of the line, drilling and chipping [tactics] on it, time on the route, etc. without any direct experience on the route to corroborate those accusations.
It's not like 'Ignorant Bliss' up in WA where there's a specific bolt count per pitch and the facts of its hole count are not being disputed. If people are going spread lies and perpetrate a myth of drilling and chipping it's on them to make their case. In this case, from what I can tell, folks perpetrating the myth the loudest never bothered to find out the facts and no longer have the skills or the stones to do so now.
As far as the appropriateness argument goes, try telling the guys back east at Whitehorse and in NC that high angle slabs are 'off limits' or inappropriate for climbing and they'll kick your ass.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Why lower the armchair climbing standards down to your own level, when you can rise to the challenge?
So true, what was I thinking?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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It's not like 'Ignorant Bliss' up in WA...
Did you ever climb IB Joseph? I know you take a dim view of it, which is fine by me, but I'm curious about whether you ever got on it. As far as I could get up it in a day and still get down safely I thought it was great.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Some armchair bigwalling for ya, from one of the kooks:
"And you kooks, like Healy, think it's a wondrous accomplishment that such a team could walk up and do such a proud route."--mimi
That an unskilled "team could walk up and do such a proud route" is EXACTLY why it is such a wondrous accomplishment--it has NOT been seconded (yet) despite some valiant efforts...
The name of big-walling--invent your own rules/ethics and legends and see how many of the m-asses will kiss your azz and follow them.
...funny game you play with the hammer and steel!
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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[Mimi] It's funny that you are so worked up about a climb on El Cap that you've never done, on a cliff that you've never climbed on your own (sorry if I'm mistaken), using techniques that are far, far above your skill level. –Mark Hudon
[Mark] are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it? – Off White
That's true, I'll retract that. Climbing is climbing and anyone can have an opinion about it. –Mark Hudon
I'm in no way singling you out Mark, as what I am about to say goes equally well for the other hundreds of posters on this, and the multitude of other WoS threads, myself included.
Get a clue dude.
This, and other, WoS threads that preceded it represent the practice of armchair mountaineering elevated to its most challenging, intellectually stimulating, emotionally overwrought, and slanderous best. The WoS controversy ranks amongst the highest accomplishment in the form, the platinum tip of the pyramid if you will. “It’s funny that you’re so worked up”… look, if you can't get yourself all worked up and roll with the big boys, you need bow out. Get off the bench and get yourself a chair with ARMS, kick back, relax, and step up the slander. Who cares if you're “mistaken”? Or reasonable? Or factual? Untempered speculation, masked grievances, self-righteousness, logarithmic equations, ancient technologies, ethical impasses, futuristic musings, grudges, entertainment, emotional baiting, slander, and glory fuels the endeavor.
Retract nothing!
Retract everything!
The last thing this subject needs is resolution, equipoise, closure. Allow the debunking of climbing myths to square and cube in every direction until it all fold backs onto itself and begins again at an ever-higher level. Hopefully, the naïve faith that Ammon’s (probable) second ascent will resolve - or simplify - any of the myriad issues will soon be broken.
Without unrestrained vigor, armchair mountaineering as a sport hits a plateau.
And Lovesgasoline gives the crowning comment on the whole debacle - the platinum tip of the bizarre pyramid!
Pitch-perfect and frame-worthy block of text that deeply mines the strangeness at play. Just f#cking delicious, LG!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Did you ever climb IB Joseph? I know you take a dim view of it, which is fine by me, but I'm curious about whether you ever got on it.
Absolutely not, and my criticisms of the route don't require it. I'm not disputing any specific detail of the climb that would require I verify those details. I'm criticizing it as a 23-pitch sportless wonder bolted in a wilderness. Then again maybe it's destined to become the 51st North American classic in today's demographic:
p1 - 5.6 / 120' / 2 bolts
p2 - 5.4 / 110' / 4 bolts
p3 - 5.4 / 100' / 2 bolts
p4 - 5.6 / 100' / 9 bolts
p5 - 5.5 / 110' / 9 bolts
p6 - 5.7 / 160' / 5 bolts
p7 - 5.6 / 190' / 7 bolts (walk)
p8 - 5.5 / 200' / 3 bolts
p9 - 5.9 / 160' / 10 bolts
p10 - 5.8 / 100' / 7 bolts
p11 - 10b / 90' / 9 bolts (walk)
p12 - 5.8 / 110' / 6 bolts
p13 - 5.2 / 130' / 1 bolts
p14 - 5.7 / 160' / 10 bolts
p15 - 5.2 / 160' / 2 bolts
p16 - 5.0 / 80' / 0 bolts
p17 - 5.0 / 140' / 0 bolts
p18 - 5.8 / 110' / 8 bolts
p19 - 10c / 130' / 17 bolts
p20 - 5.7 / 60' / 2 bolts
p21 - 10a / 180' / 15 bolts
p22 - 5.8 / 160' / 11 bolts
p23 - 5.9 / 90' / 14 bolts
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Thanks. Wasn't looking for an argument, just curious is all.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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p19 - 10c / 130' / 17 bolts
What the hell are you, some kind of screaming Mimi? It's a classic I tell you.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Karl, I just meant the storm of endless WoS posts (of which this is yet another one) here on Supertopo, not the earlier real world reaction to both the route, the magazine article, and the book. The route was just fine as a sleeping dog for decades, I thougth it was the FA party that got the party started here on line.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Some of us STILL don't care. You can Have The Grand Slab.
Anyone. Even Bueller.
Have a nice day.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Off White:
It's easy to say let sleeping dogs lie when you're not the member of the climbing community deeply slandered and remembered for just that.
I don't blame those guys for chiming in and hey, it's one of the the few long lasting on-topic conversations super topo has
peace
karl
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Hope this team makes it. I remember being in the Valley while the first ascent team was on it....it looked BIG and BOLD. I would go out to the meadow and can remember thinking, "how bold to be up there for such a freekin' long time." I know it was very controversial at the time, but I always figured, they're up there doin' it and we're down here not! Best wishes to the current team on a safe and adventurous trip.
Peace
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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FACT: WOS DOES NOT GO UP A SLAB - IT GOES UP AN APRON
FACT: THE APRON IS SOME OF THE HARDEST, FINEST-GRAINED GRANITE ON EL CAP
FACT: DIME EDGES WERE THERE 1000+ YEARS AGO
FACT: 30 RECENT YEARS OF RAIN HAS NOT "WASHED AWAY" THE EDGES
FACT: EDGES THAT WASH AWAY IN WATER ARE PLASTER OF POSEUR HOLDS IN A GYM
FACT: ANY 5.19 FOOL WITH BUBBLE GUM ON HIS SHOES CAN WALK UP WOS IN AN HOUR
FACT: IT TAKES A REAL BAD-ASS TO GO UP WITH HOOKS, LIKE MARK AND RICHARD DID
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I followed my friend up Nirvana at suicide, and got to thinking... those edges don't 'wear away.' Look at Valhalla, after thousands of ascents and all manner of chugging on those edges they aren't rounded off or slick, still sharp and good to go ;D
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouldering the Gnar
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Well put, Mr. Gomez.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
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Does that 'Delete this post' thingy really work? And does that take all subsequent posts to hell with it?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Gunkie, you have the power.
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#1SuperMama
Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
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Update: Ammon & Kait were having lunch at the top of pitch 4 mid-afternoon today.
Then onto five.
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