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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 23, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Being consistant, and following God's word, is to walk the difficult road, and enter through the narrow gate.
Hopefully, we can agree to disagree, and still be respectful of each other's opinion.
I'm with ya on that. I get called 'stubborn' for sticking to my moral guns. But, in the end, I'll be judged by someone other than those who'd call me that.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 23, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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"Jesus Christ came to abolish the law and create a new way of relationship with God/Him that was based on Grace. His coming, as planned from the beginning, changed mankind's relationship with the One true unchanging God."
So... if god is unchanging, how can we change his law and the interpretation of it? if he is unchanging, then obviously he does not intend to change his laws. He is unchanging. His laws are set in an unchanging stone. Like a rock.
"It was a new way. The good news. The Gospel. Those that attempt to cling to the Law will miss the point. At the time, that Law was relevant, much of it no longer is."
This is confusing. I thought god was unchanging. If he is unchanging, why would he make a law that is now irrelevant? that would mean he changed.
"There is context and mystery in the Bible, even paradox but no contradiction."
Now yer just f-ing with us. If god is unchanging he wouldn't confuse us with paradox and contr-y-diction. Let alone "paradox but no contridiction". WTF are you talkin' aboot?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 23, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Cragman, when you say:
"I have to state this again; I don't hate our gay brothers and sisters. But I do think it's wrong to violate God's law, and call sin something other than it is, all for the sake of being PC."
What you are saying is that you think it is wrong for someone else, to violate YOUR interpretation of YOUR God's law, and for the force of our non-denominational gov't to use the force of it's laws and it's police to enforce that "God-law".
We are all sinners, are we not? But are you out on a bandwagon, asking the gov't to create legal bans on anything that would be considered a "sin"? No. And this creates the question of why devout people choose specific things to get all legal about? Why is that? Motive matters, when it is about acting to not allow someone to have a right that you yourself enjoy. That starts to sound like oppression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f7js0mLwY4
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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Pushing back against a group within our society that purposes to inflict their agenda on society when I feel it is wrong, is one of the benefits of our republic.
What utter nonsense and hypocrisy. "Their agenda" is their own equality: it seems like the Christian Right wingers are the ones who are inflicting their agenda on people's personal lives.
Cut out the Bible bullshit: it's a moral and intellectual cop out. You pro prop 8 people don't like gay people, find them disgusting and what to keep them separate. You are haters.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 23, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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Hopefully, we can agree to disagree, and still be respectful of each other's opinion
Okay, using "you" and "me" in the broader sense of representing the two sides of this disagreement, rather than any of us individuals, how 'bout this:
For reasons which seem compelling to you, and nonsensical to me, you feel that gays should not be allowed to marry.
For reasons which seem compelling to me and heretical to you, I feel that gay couples should have the same legal rights as straight couples.
Notice, though, that what you are talking about is "marriage" and what I am talking about is "legal rights." Not the same thing at all, and I think this is the source of a lot of the ill will here. But as well as being a source of misunderstanding, I think it can also be the source of a real solution.
The solution? Take marriage out of the law altogether. I'm perfectly willing to let your church refuse to marry gays. Not an issue at all. Your church can define marriage as whatever it wants, give it whatever religious significance it wants, and allow/deny/require it in any way it wants.
Likewise, the church on the next block can define marriage as it sees fit. Might be different from what your church comes up with, but as long as you don't tell each other that only one church has the right to define marriage for everybody, then no one is hurt and no one is left out.
At the same time, let the government make whatever laws it sees fit about the rights of couples. Call it "civil union" or whatever you like. That way, the sanctity of marriage will never be sullied in your eyes, and gays will not be discriminated against in mine. Your church will never allow my gay lover and I to be "married" and we won't dictate what you can or can't do in your church. You can go on believing that I'm a sinner and I can go on believing that you believe in supernatural nonsense, and all of us are treated equally before the law. You get the same treatment from the IRS as I do. You can make medical decisions for your incapacitated lover just as I can. You have the same inheritance rights as I do. You get to keep marriage sacred in the eyes of Jesus. The church down the street gets to keep the Flying Spaghetti Monster happy by not allowing left-handed people to marry, and the church another block down gets to do what it sees fit.
Micronut? Bluering? Cragman? Does that make sense? Do you see that as a way to deal fairly with a difficult issue? Make "marriage" a religious rite, and equal access to civil union a legal right?
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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Ghost and Dave, those are good points questions and I'd like to pose a thoughtful response quickly, but I'm a lousy typist and I gotta go build a fence. I'll post up a response soon.
Dave, especially about the contradictory/law/God is unchanging part. This is actually pretty easy to explain. I've made sense out of it to many a skeptic. I think you'll understand it even if you disagree with it based on your worldview.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Ghost, I agree with that approach.
--------------------
"Ken M, standing up for one's belief is not oppression. Pushing back against a group within our society that purposes to inflict their agenda on society when I feel it is wrong, is one of the benefits of our republic."
That is exactly the argument that slavery advocates used. That was their belief. "Their Agenda" has NOTHING to do with you. They are not asking that you be required to marry another male. They are not asking you to do anything....but leave them alone. You want to inflict you religion upon others, and that has a long and hallowed history, all bad.
In fact, this is the one thing that I've not been able to understand, at all.....how does what gay people do have any effect on the rest of us? Why should I be threatened by what they do? Why should the traditional institution of marriage be threatened? I just do not understand.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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Eh. don't bother. I believe what I believe just like you believe what you believe. No one is going to change anything. I just enjoy pointing out the irony of the fairy tales.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 23, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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No big deal Dave. Many people form inaccurate opinions about things without a solid understanding of the facts, and therefore develop a set of ideals and strong opinions based on personal experience and partial information. If you ever want to hear the truth about Christianity, let me know. I'd be game for a real discussion without any attempt to "change someone's mind." For real. See you around the Taco.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 23, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
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Funny that we talk about "facts" in the same sentence as beliefs.
Eh, I went to mass weekly for 20 years (too many) and read the bible cover to cover more than once. We'll leave it at that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 23, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
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No big deal Dave. Many people form inaccurate opinions about things without a solid understanding of the facts, and therefore develop a set of ideals and strong opinions based on personal experience and partial information. If you ever want to hear the truth about Christianity, let me know. I'd be game for a real discussion without any attempt to "change someone's mind." For real. See you around the Taco.
This is why I'm dying to camp/climb with Micro/Scott. We got a lot in common. I just wanna hear your take on sh#t. One Catholic-raised sinner to a Christian. I love this stuff!
Scott, we gotta do a family trip! Courtright or whatever, but my wife loves the place after I took her there and my son hasn't seen it yet.
We should do a Supertopo CourtrightFest!!! Maybe get JELezarian to come too.
Maybe Ksolem, Jan, and others..
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 23, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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Dave I was talking about the facts of Christianity, the facts about what real Christians believe. Not trying to make our beliefs fact to others....does that make sense? Going to church for a long time and not believing in what you heard (and there are many off base churches out there that are not representative of the true kingdom of Christianity) does not disprove the validity of the Christian Faith. It simply means you chose not to believe. That's cool. But it doesn't mean its bogus. Just to you. Its like saying...."I sat in El Cap meadow every sunday for an hour for years and never saw someone climb that thing. Nobody ever will. Of this I'm certain. Anybody who says some guy could climb that thing is a fool. I've been there and seen how big and smooth it is!"
An binoculars and a bluebird Fall day to the equation and it might lead to a compelling change of mind, no matter how convinced it was at one point.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 23, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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You bet man...I'm always down for Courtright. This summer for sure.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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They got the right to be gay, don't they?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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How could someone lie to themselves about who they are every day of their lives?
I don't think they lie to themselves about who they are, rather they accept the lie foisted on them by others about who they ought to be. As in, "I'm gay, the church tells me that's wrong, so I hate myself."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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Bump for final arguments.
Polls now show the majority now supports gay marriage in Cali. I wonder if the people who claimed they will of the people should be the law (when prop 8 passed) would still feel that way if the will of the people was to legalize gay marriage.
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apogee
climber
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The California Judge is expected to come down with his decision on the constitutionality of Prop 9 between 1-3 pm today....should be quite interesting...
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apogee
climber
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I wonder if there is a f*#kthisguy(dot)com url out there somewhere?
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