Is Religion Doing More Harm Than Good These Days?(OT)

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paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jun 14, 2017 - 02:40pm PT

The things you say are important have no importance to my life or the way I lead it

As it should be. As long as others might have their own "importances."

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 04:19pm PT

Altruism has been found to be an trait that has evolved because it has a benefit for the survival of our species

So the Golden Rule has no connection to a higher power, it's part of our evolutionary history

John M

climber

Jun 14, 2017 - 04:28pm PT

what is altruism for Donald Trump? A genuine question. How does that look to you? Is it the unconditional love of the new agers?

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 04:39pm PT

The Golden Rule is "do unto others as you wish they do unto you"

I don't have any direct contact with Trump, so I don't have to worry about doing unto him.
Nor do I have to be altruistic to him, since he we do not have a personal relationship. Nothing I do will affect Trump, so if I did some altruism for him, it would be meaningless.

John M

climber

Jun 14, 2017 - 04:41pm PT

Altruism is disinterested.
Why should anyone's title, beliefs, speech, or actions matter?

This is where I have extreme disagreement of modern teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha taught selfless love. Not disinterested love. The very essence of Love includes interest.

So practically speaking.. does disinterest mean that you would not stop someone from murdering someone else? Would you not try to stop someone from doing harm to others? Even Jesus threw down the money changers tables.

.......

Edit:

I don't have any direct contact with Trump, so I don't have to worry about doing unto him.

You don't have to have direct contact in order to "do unto others". If you vote for things like war, then you are partially responsible for that war. Our congress did not go and fight the war in Iraq, but they are certainly responsible for enacting it and requiring others to go fight it.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jun 14, 2017 - 04:41pm PT

Altruism is a word likely not in Trump's vocabulary and definetly not evident in his behavior.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 04:54pm PT

The "Golden Rule" was given by Jesus of Nazareth, who used it to summarize the Torah: "Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets" (Matthew 7:12 NCV, see also Luke 6:31).

Definition of golden rule
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/golden%20rule

1 a rule of ethical conduct referring to Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31: do to others as you would have them do to you

2 a guiding principle

golden rule

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/golden-rule

1. a rule of ethical conduct, usually phrased “ Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, ” or, as in the Sermon on the Mount, “ Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so unto them. ” Matt. 7:12; Luke 6:31.

2. Any philosophy, guiding principle, or ideal of behavior, as in a discipline, pursuit, or business: The protesters agreed that their golden rule would be“no violence.”.

Byran

climber

Half Dome Village

Jun 14, 2017 - 04:59pm PT

The Golden Rule is arrived at through logical thinking. It's not mandated by God, and it's not an innate human characteristic shaped by evolution. Humans have been tribal animals for a very long time and most of our hard-wired morality is based on "in group / out group" distinctions. This probably evolved through kin selection and reciprocal altruism. But humans definitely aren't hardwired to regard all of humanity as part of the "in group". If we were, the history books wouldn't be filled with wars, genocides, racism, gang violence, et al.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:05pm PT

OK
how does all this Golden Rule constitute a higher purpose?
My dog wants to be good, won't poop or pee in the house, and she goes out of her way to be cuddly and lovable, higher purpose?

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:07pm PT

Religion is for the weak...

Which is what most of us are.

Altruism may be a vestige of evolution but religion promotes it, encourages it, even makes it into a lifestyle, all things it would not be if it were simply an evolutionary consequence.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:10pm PT

civil society promotes altruism religion or not

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:13pm PT

civil society promotes altruism religion or not

Not true... civil society promotes its survival: ask Stalin how important altruism is in his civil society, ask the Spartans, Chairman Mao.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:15pm PT

I suspect that the amount of altruism in a given population has nothing at all to do with religious belief or disbelief. Altruism and good behavior are as disconnected from religious belief as prayer is from influencing outcomes.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:20pm PT

During Stalin's Russia there was the normal amount of altruism going on inside local tribes.

Obviously...!!!!
That not all humans are altruistic; i.e Stalin, Trump, Bush, the Republicans

The initial point of my debate was:
since there is no after life or God

And if you want to be a good human; Why Not?
You should live in the here and now, and abide by the Golden Rule
That's all I got.

paul roehl

Boulder climber

california

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:49pm PT

You should live in the here and now, and abide by the Golden Rule

Begs the question: why?

That's all I got.

Certainty requires more.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:53pm PT

That's all I got for "now"

since my dinner appeared in front of my computer
Please post any question that is specific enough to debate
and I will get back to you

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jun 14, 2017 - 05:57pm PT

Give it up Paul, if don't understand what Craig is saying then it is up to you find out, not him.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 06:57pm PT

Why should I abide by the Golden Rule?

Because I want to, I want to be treated justly, so I need to treat others justly to deserve being treated justly

I want to be a good human, just like my dog wants to be a good dog.
It's innate for some, not all

there are bad humans and bad dogs
that's why we have a judicial system/pound

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Jun 14, 2017 - 07:20pm PT

^
no evidence of Jesus or what he said verbatim exists
so we really have no idea what was going through his mind at any time during his life if he existed at all, or was just mythologized, which would be the likely explanantion

So you may need to find that source of love inside yourself
I have