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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 12, 2016 - 05:09am PT
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I believe God would love that (1st commandment)
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Shiho
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Apr 12, 2016 - 12:20pm PT
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Have you read any books that have different perspectives from yours in terms of religion such as books by Karen Armstrong ('A history of God' is fascinating!), Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris or Richard Darwin? If you have, what did you think of it/them? If not, why not?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 12, 2016 - 12:57pm PT
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Shiho
Who are you asking?
Many of us have read these books, and found them good reads.
Look what mother nature created!!
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Shiho
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Apr 12, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
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I am asking limpingcrab, of course! I know a lot of you guys have read those books. As a matter of fact, I found out about Karen Armstrong somewhere on ST :)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 12, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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I've read several of those books and they have been well written and well reasoned. Best of all....none of them have passages condoning rape, slavery or fratricide.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 03:34pm PT
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Intelligent design, because creating whales with legs is just common sense Just a heads up, Patrick, that's kind of a silly meme. Those bones are the whale's baculum, most mammals have an actual bone in their penis, even though we call ours the boner :)
I have nothing against the evolution of species and believe it is necessary for their survival. If we never had errors in our genetics we could not adapt to a changing planet, even though they sometimes cause disease.
Have you read any books that have different perspectives from yours in terms of religion such as books by Karen Armstrong ('A history of God' is fascinating!), Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris or Richard Darwin? If you have, what did you think of it/them? If not, why not? Honestly, I have not read all the way through any of those books, and that's true for books on both sides of these topics. Instead, because I'm a nerd, I read about a topic and then look at primary sources and related chapters in books. I have compared the Bible to the Qur'an, book of Mormon, and other philosophies. I have also read many journal articles and book chapters about topics in evolution and abiogenesis. I research things for fun for some reason (i.e. I read an entire Geology of the Sierra Nevada textbook last summer before a backpack trip so I could know about the rocks I saw).
If you're wondering, I don't have a problem with young earth, old earth, the history of evolution or many other topics. I have learned a lot but as most people realize when they study, it's only exposed how much I (we as people) don't know.
Not sure if that answered your question, but in short I think I have looked pretty thoroughly into both sides, as I hope everyone does. If there's a specific topic from something you've read and you'd like to know my take on it I'd be happy to give "my" answer.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 12, 2016 - 03:48pm PT
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Are you a better Christian if you accept evolution?
or a bad one, because the bible says The Universe was created in 6 Days?
Do you really accept evolution, or do you believe that God guided it along for 13.5 billion years to us here today, as in Intelligent design?
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
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Are you a better Christian if you accept evolution?
or a bad one, because the bible says The Universe was created in 6 Days?
Do you really accept evolution, or do you believe that God guided it along for 13.5 billion years to us here today, as in Intelligent design? I don't know. I believe that a creator was necessary for life to start. Beyond that I have read convincing arguments from many perspectives.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Apr 12, 2016 - 04:17pm PT
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The only mysteries here, LC, is (1) why you are not living up to your science education as you found it in your science textbooks and college classes and (2) why you are not living up to your century (it's the 21st c as you know, not your great grandpa's x30, iow the 13th).
Despite the fact that your theistic worldview is popular with the uneducated masses...
Why not require of yourself more as a 21st century earth citizen?
Whether you recognize them or not, they are values... living up to your century and living up to your science education. They are values among increasing millions. And their prevalence and strength are growing. You ought to take part, it feels pretty good.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
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The only mysteries here, LC, is (1) why you are not living up to your science education as you found it in your science textbooks and college classes and (2) why you are not living up to your century (it's the 21st c as you know, not your great grandpa's x30, iow the 13th).
Despite the fact that your theistic worldview is popular with the uneducated masses...
Why not require of yourself more as a 21st century earth citizen?
Whether you recognize them or not, they are values... living up to your century and living up to your science education. They are values among increasing millions. And their prevalence and strength are growing. You ought to take part, it feels pretty good. I do not believe that science, or productive thinking in general, and a faith in Jesus need to be seen as opposing forces. After all, 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989
nobelist.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/50-nobelists.pdf
I can't get that to be clickable so you'll have to copy/paste if you want to see it.
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Shiho
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Apr 13, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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I do not believe that science, or productive thinking in general, and a faith in Jesus need to be seen as opposing forces. After all, 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989
nobelist.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/50-nobelists.pdf
I didn't see any indication in the first article that 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs. Did I miss it? The second link didn't work for me at all.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 13, 2016 - 10:27am PT
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These threads are absolutely useless. No one is going to have the slightest impact on a "faith based" persons beliefs no matter what arguments they use. Conversely, arguments based on faith will have absolutely zero impact on a person without faith.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Apr 13, 2016 - 10:36am PT
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I do not believe that science, or productive thinking in general, and a faith in Jesus need to be seen as opposing forces. After all, 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989
Holding "spiritual beliefs" is far, far removed from believing in Christianity or any other organized religion. Furthermore, even the article you cite above states the following in its introduction:
"There is mounting evidence, both correlational and causal, which demonstrates that analytic thinking (as measured by tests of intelligence and critical thinking) discourages the acceptance of religious and spiritual beliefs [1–7]." In other words, there exists a measurable negative correlation between IQ and religious belief.
Curt
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Shiho
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Apr 13, 2016 - 11:02am PT
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Do you believe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in the same God? If so, why the differences in their believes? If not, why not? (If you have already answered the question, I apologize. I didn't read the whole 700+ posts.)
These threads are absolutely useless. No one is going to have the slightest impact on a "faith based" persons beliefs no matter what arguments they use. Conversely, arguments based on faith will have absolutely zero impact on a person without faith.
I agree with you. I am just curious to see how this seemingly intelligent guy came to the conclusion that is the complete opposite of mine.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 11:59am PT
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Despite the fact that your theistic worldview is popular with the uneducated masses...
I second LC's point that science and Christianity can coexist in harmony. In addition to LC and Micronut, among others in my part of the world, I have too many personal counterexamples in my own family. I have three male first cousins on my mother's side. Two have Ph.D.'s in physics, and one in molecular biology. (I was the obvious failure child here. As one of my late mother's friends put it after meeting my sister (also an attorney) and me, "They're smart. They could have been engineers.") The physicists are retired profs (one from Lyons, one from the French University in Beirut), the other just recently retired as head of pharmaceutical research for Church & Dwight in Canada. All are strong evangelical Christians.
All of this is beside the point. The popular arguments these days have an unfortunate tendency to regress into appeals to authority, i.e. X% of scientists believe proposition Y. Sorry, folks, but that simply gives "political science" a new meaning. Logic doesn't care what any particular authority or group of authorities believe. Since the arguments against Christianity given here purport to be logical, you need at least to keep obvious logical fallacies out of the argument.
John
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 13, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
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Donini! Re your assertion: These threads are absolutely useless. No one is going to have the slightest impact on a "faith based" persons beliefs no matter what arguments they use. Conversely, arguments based on faith will have absolutely zero impact on a person without faith.
Not quite so!
Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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Note John E is confusing...
a) compatibility and compartmentalization.
b) compatible and compartmentalized
They are distinct.
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