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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/06/us/native-tribe-blasts-oregon-takeover/
Burns, Oregon (CNN)The leaders of the Burns Paiute tribe have a message for the men and women who have taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge outside Burns, Oregon: "Go home. We don't want you here."
The message came from several tribe members whose ancestors fought and died over portions of that land long before the ranchers and farmers had it, long before the federal government even existed.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2016 - 10:20pm PT
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It was mentioned upthread that Ammon Bundy claims to be real-tight with God. Here's a quote that ought to scare any but the most crankaloon among us.
"I clearly understood that the Lord was not pleased with what was happening to the Hammonds," Ammon said. "It was exactly like it was happening at the Bundy ranch, when we were guided and directed as to what we were supposed to do ... And I ask you now to come participate in this wonderful thing in Harney County that the Lord is about to accomplish."
I always find it scary when a terrorist claims that God talks with him.
The Bundys and Finicum (#tarpman) are Mormon. Mormons have a history of using "prophecies" to justify all sorts of nonsense. Joe Smith had many, including polygamy, allegedly as an excuse to bang more women. At one point the church leadership almost forcibly castrated Smith, but the doctor fainted.
Elizabeth Smart fell under her kidnappers control because he told her he had a prophecy that she was to be his wife. John Krakauer's book Under The Banner Of Heaven delves into the church history, great book
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TLP
climber
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Base104, fire on rangeland in the arid intermountain region, including eastern Oregon, is a way different thing than it is in the short- or tall-grass prairie, but it is not simple at all. On the one hand, fire gets rid of juniper that otherwise can completely overtake sagebrush steppe (habitat for sage grouse); on the other hand, it can cause massive infestations of cheat grass which is damn poor for most wildlife or cattle. Likewise other weeds in the region. Depending on the details, a fire can be beneficial or really harmful and hard to restore. You can't make any guesses at all based on how things are in Oklahoma - or even in an ecologically different site right in eastern Oregon. That said, it seems like the issue isn't whether the fire was beneficial or not, but rather that there was a previous instance and warning that future burning could have consequences. Which it did.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Who doesn't love a good obfuscation?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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I'd love a good obfuscation if it wasn't for the fact that my feet are green.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Why is the Militia is there? Because the Federal Government just took the land from over 100 hard working families/ranches and incorporated these properties into already existing wildlife refuge. However, according to Langston's book, the gov bought the land from failing ranches in the 1930's and early 40's. Apparently the combination of drought and the depression had been hard on this area, and the federal government was hot to add to the ccc projects already active within the existing wildlife refuge boundaries.
the government never set money aside to run the refuge between 1908 and 1934, so it was really a refuge without any funding or supervision.
What that version doesn't say is that the water and grazing sources were greatly depleted between 1908 and 1934, when the government bought what was left of the French-Glenn P-Ranch. That was property not even the Hammonds wanted. In 1934 a big piece of the lake was dry desert. They bought the biggest piece from Swift, then and still Agribusiness, not small ranchers. Swift sold because it was unprofitable. 1934 was the worst year of the depression.
There was a bit of a drought all over the West then ( it is currently in the fourth year of a drought), and between that, and the ranchers overgrazing and running too many cattle, the lake was so dry that you could walk out onto the lakebed. People camped on it. People chose federal land first to graze and overgraze, saving their own land for winter(they still do that if unchecked). One of the biggest operations there was Swift meats.
During that era it was the largest cattle region in the country.
So the land became basically worthless and ranches failed. The French Glenn cattle operation and then Swift, who bought the largest part of the P-Ranch just overused the resource.
It was only when the Feds had enough control of the watershed that they could build dams the lake came back, and everybody who was left benefited. If you recall, that was the era of the civilian conservation corps and the Feds were putting people all over the nation building stuff.
You can start reading on the P ranch, which sold land to the Hammonds, here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_Ranch
Another good read is how Pete French bought the land from the government and ran out small ranchers. He built dams to flood the region, then bought from the government at $1.25 and acre for marsh land, then drained it. He also fenced public land to keep other ranchers out. Just because you fence public land, that doesn't mean title conveys to you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_French
The lake has a long history of competing land claims, but the history shows the Feds have controlled the area back to the 1940's, and the Supreme Court has rejected various competing claims ove the years. The Oregonian has a story on that.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/supreme_court_already_ruled_th.html
And a description of the dry lake in 1930 is here: (page 14)
http://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/Region_1/NWRS/Zone_2/Malheur/Documents/MalheurNWR_FCCP_chapter1.pdf
French was apparently not well liked by the small rancher, so resentment for large operation of any sort is not new. Here's how he died.
http://gesswhoto.com/sheriff-harney4.html
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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These guys are not much in the terror dept. i don't thing they even make the practice squad. fear nailed it. they have gone winter camping in the middle of west bumfck and done a lot of whineing. tha's about it so far.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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There are numerous Muslims in this country who have been convicted on terror charges because undercover FBI agents took an otherwise incompetent moron who posted some garbage on the internet, suggested that they take action and then provided them with the means to commit those acts.
Here, a bunch of white guys with guns took over a government building for ideological reasons but hey, they look like me so let's chalk it up to youthful indiscretion, right?
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Very interesting post Lorenzo. Thanks for putting that up. I started by giving them the benefit of the doubt and looking into their beef, then coming to the conclusion that (at least in this case) they are totally out to lunch for so many reasons.
Maybe I should send them this for supplies, huh? Never hurts to have more brains around...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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A clear cut case of non-affluenza? "Show me duh money".
$20 Billion a year farm subsidies.
To this day, to be treated as a farmer in America doesn’t necessarily require you to grow any crops. According to the Government Accountability Office, between 2007 and 2011 Uncle Sam paid some $3m in subsidies to 2,300 farms where no crop of any sort was grown. Between 2008 and 2012, $10.6m was paid to farmers who had been dead for over a year. Such payments explain why Tom Vilsack, the agriculture secretary, is promoting a rule to attempt to crack down on payments to non-farming folk. But with crop prices now falling, taxpayers are braced to be fleeced again.
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21643191-crop-prices-fall-farmers-grow-subsidies-instead-milking-taxpayers
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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This problem with ranchers is not new.
The feds (BLM, etc.) lease these lands to ranchers at bargain-basement prices. It's corporate welfare at its worst.
The ranchers start to believe that the land is "theirs" and starting acting like theses as#@&%es.
The feds are partly to blame - they cater to these dip shits.
Several decades ago, I was a member of an organization that attempted to lease federal ranch land through open bids - because the land was horribly abused by the ranchers and over-grazed. We were going to lease the land to let it rest and recover. But the feds ruled that only ranchers could bid on ranch land.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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fedraly subsidizeing our food production is a no brainer. allowing thousands of people to scam the system sucks. Lots of so called gentelman farmers here in VT. rich semi retired from out of state. they move here, build massive homes and they get huge tax breaks by calling themselfs farmers. the best scam is to build a huge sugar house , tap 100 trees with your kids for fun every spring and sell 2k in syrup or sap. 2k is the majick number to get the Ag bennefits.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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if armed natives took over Fed buildings because they wanted their land back....
...they'd be dead, well, cuz...
Murica!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Hey, where'd our 1.5 million acre reservation go?
Can we have it back?
Harney County Paiutes, near Burns Oregon.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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*
From Los Angles times, 1/7 2016
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/1780/article/p2p-85510351/
.......
The daily rhythm of life here has been interrupted, said resident after resident on Wednesday night. But Harney County Sheriff David Ward raised a more troubling issue. He said one of his wife’s tires had been “flattened,” and said someone followed his parents home.
“You don't come here and intimidate people. That's not how we live our lives in Harney County,” Ward said. “Our wives have a right not to be tailed home. Our pastors have a right to not be shouted at on the street.
"You don't get to threaten me because I disagree with you."
He delivered the last line to raucous applause, then asked for a show of hands: How many people want the occupiers to go home, he asked. At least three-quarters of the room raised their hands.
...............
Didn't Bundy state.. he would go home if the town didn't want them occupying the wildlife refuge ?
The native people also asked them to leave..
http://www.kgw.com/news/burns-tribe-says-armed-activists-desecrating-oregon-land/11701540
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