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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 15, 2014 - 12:42am PT
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Crickets........................
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 15, 2014 - 12:47am PT
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To Bruce, I also ask the reverse question of you: why did the BLM need to show up with all their "hardware" and attack dogs? I realize this is called begging the question, but it's as legit as what you're asking of Jan.
My answer: it was to emphasize the point that there would be no more Wacos or Ruby Ridges in Nevada.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 15, 2014 - 12:50am PT
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I think John, it's about what the battles in the West have always been about - the use of resources and land. Promises broken, treaties ignored, and small stakeholders pushed around by big money interests. First the Indians and now the cowboys.And as you said, good intentions not well thought out and incomprehension of the other's position because the life styles are so different.
And yes, there is a lot of anger out there over Waco and Ruby Ridge. And I'm still mad about what I saw when I lived in Berkeley during the '60's.
Peace marchers sitting on the ground singing when a Hell's Angel wades into the crowd and started beating hippies with a motorcycle chain while the Oakland cops stood there and laughed until the Hell's Angel broke the leg of a Berkeley policeman, and then they intervened.
Two Oakland policemen getting drunk and shooting out the windows of the Black Panther headquarters from the top of the cop car while the red light circled around.
People get the respect they earn whether in uniform or not.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 15, 2014 - 12:51am PT
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Not semantics. Does the average cop on the beat carry a machine gun? Short answer: no. The mere fact that there were roped off "First Amendment" areas and the big white paddy wagon ENCOURAGED the response that occurred.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:01am PT
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Bruce Kay
You really really are a nutcase .....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:04am PT
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Bruce-
The carry you refer to for the cop in the cop car or on the street is as you surmised; strictly for personal defense. The hardware the BLM so-called Rangers were carrying were Assault Rifles in the truest form; selective fire weapons capable of either single shots or burst fire. Were they necessary for any other purpose than INTIMIDATION? And that, my friend, is why the other "old white dudes" showed up packing their hardware.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:04am PT
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If you look at statistics, the average policeman who dies in the line of duty does so in an urban area and most likely from a handgun. Cowboys out West shoot bullet holes in road signs but they are not known for shooting cops with their hunting rifles.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:09am PT
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Remarkable isn't it, over a thousand armed westerners without a single incident. Meanwhile, how many people died over the weekend from criminals who carry the only weapons in gun controlled major cities.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:11am PT
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Well you tell me Bruce what answer it is you're looking for. It seems to me you're being very coy with your questions.
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John M
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:12am PT
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what Bruce means is that guns are meant to kill things. So what he is saying is that they were carrying guns which indicated that they were willing to kill a police officer doing his duty.
What would have happened if someone had fired accidentally?
At Waco both sides say that they did not fire first. 4 ATF agents and 6 branch davidians were killed in the initial raid because someone shot first.
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John M
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:16am PT
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what Jan meant is that your questions are leading. You know the answer that you are after, so why not stop playing games and just make your case..
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:16am PT
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You know Bruce, we are all products of history and the history of the United States whether you agree, or whether any of us agree with it or not, is that citizens have the right to bear arms and to fight against what they perceive as unjust government. The British complained at Lexinghton and Concord that we didn't respect their authority and fight fair. They made the same complaint at the Battle of New Orleans. Santa Ana couldn't believe that less than a hundred Texans would stand up and fight 4,000 Mexicans to the death but it happened. It's part of our heritage and that's what people had in mind when they showed up in Nevada.
At Waco plenty of women and children died huddled under blankets after the place went up in flames because the Feds took action instead of waiting them out. I doubt that will ever happen again. At Ruby Ridge the Feds shot a woman holding a baby and then shot family dog. There are reasons people in the West don't trust the federal government much and recent examples of what happens if people don't defend their neighbors. Right or wrong, that is the current thinking.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:18am PT
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Simple answer frosty back. Brokendownclimber stated it succinctly above-the citizens were armed for self defense to avoid another Waco or Ruby Ridge. Got it dummy?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:21am PT
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At Waco plenty of women and children died huddled under blankets after the place went up in flames because the Feds took action instead of waiting them out. I doubt that will ever happen again.
and in the meantime, the rape of children went on, and on.
Odd thing that you are advocating be accepted, Jan.
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John M
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:22am PT
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No bruce, I don't recall. And I don't respond well to being led. Did my above post come close to what you are trying to say?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:22am PT
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If Bruce ever stops running his mouth long enough for a while he might actually learn something.
But he can't.
He needs to talk endlessly (motor mouth) ...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:22am PT
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"Doing his duty"... Ha!
A lot of LEO's recently have gone way too far. Murder, beatings, etc....
And those are just the events caught on camera.
It would seem to be the Feds are pushing as hard as possible for a hot shooting conflict and the people are pushing back. There's no reason for this. The feds could ruin this guy economically without firing a shot.
We know this first batch of 'militia' will get slaughtered without a doubt.
Look around the world at what this regime is trying to ignite.
When the thieves can print 75 billion a month, eventually time runs out. War is always next. Internal or external. Maybe both.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:30am PT
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Better to be dead than have a professional investigation of whether those sexual assaults occured or not, is that your position Ken? I thought people were innocent until proven guilty.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:30am PT
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To Bruce, I also ask the reverse question of you: why did the BLM need to show up with all their "hardware" and attack dogs?
This is the time-tested (and true) logic of law enforcement: When a confrontation is occurring, there can be two outcomes: talking, or an escalation by the other side into physical attacks. By demonstrating overwhelming potential force, making it obvious that escalation into attacks will result in total defeat, that option is eliminated, except in the case of the crazy.
This is why police will always show up for a problem when possible with overwhelming seeming overkill.....to avoid violence in the first place. They'd show up with 10:1 if possible.
It was a big complaint of the Occupy people, but it kept the Blackshirts from turning the entire thing into a bloody mess.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 15, 2014 - 01:33am PT
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We know this first batch of 'militia' will get slaughtered without a doubt.
And the police knew that, too. So they backed down inasmuch as the "militia" was likely to set off something that would have led to that. And it was NOT the goal of the police, thus the action.
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