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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
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No Ron,
unlike you, I am not naive enough to panic and fear what has not happened yet.
unlike you, I don't worry or obsess about my handguns being "banned"
unlike you, I know that the difference between full scale assault rifles and handguns is a very very big difference, and I don't pretend that because one "could" be banned that it necessarily follows that the other will be also
get it?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 29, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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Norton if that trend were at all consistent across all 50 states you might have an argument. For example many of the states with significantly lower rates than CA., Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, New Hampshire, Minnesota, and Rhode Island have less restrictive gun laws. And Vermont, which has no license to buy or own, no assault weapons ban, no restrictions on nfa weapons, and allows concealed or open carry without a permit - in other words the least strict gun laws of any state - has a death rate from guns about .3 / 100K above CA.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 29, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Of course he is. The article is about handgun crime doubling.
You're smarter than that I think. The two examples he gives are not citations to support the statistics, which are from the UK Gov.
If they were meant as such why would he cite an incident involving a shotgun found in a bag to support stats on handgun use?
Don't be silly.
He starts that as a new paragraph to show examples of overzealous enforcement of the laws.
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Dec 29, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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A Brit is five times more likely to die from government healthcare than an American is from a gunshot.
ahahahahahahahahaha!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
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So if the government should be to be be daddy to those of you who are crying for them to now fix a society that YOU built, what should they do? Because the net effect of everything now is SELLING MORE GUNS.
Why don't they manipulate the news so that the *net effect* is TURNING in GUNS?
Weird, eh? Like the NRA/gun companies are controlling the media.
Then ask yourself, what can be done so that the net effect is LESS MURDER???? Isn't that what you really want?
Because, truthfully, whoever is in control is getting what he wants, and obviously it is more gun sales.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
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I feel sorry for jghedge and others who can't see that their society is the fundamental issue here and not laws. I know it is hard to admit, because you wish you could be like countries like Canada and the UK, but that's not going to happen. You aren't. Changing a gun law is a useless thing to do in your situation at this point.
The facts are hard to swallow, especially if you have only lived in the US your whole life. But anything else is sheer stupidity/ignorance. You aren't like us, and taking the guns away from your good guys will not have the effect on your society that you wish.
Your bread is baked, you can't remove half the salt because you now find it too salty.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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They're examples of gun crime stats.
Are you high??
They're not examples of gun stats. Duh.
The guy found a shotgun wrapped in a bag in his yard (sounds like someone wanted to get rid of it quick) and so he takes it down to the local police station to turn it in. They arrest him and he ends up in jail until finally, in response to great public outcry, he is let go. They sentenced him to 5 years!!
That is not an example to support a stat, it is a story about over zealous prosecution.
You're accusing me of conjecture? Good grief are you trying to read that article on a PDA while you are driving or something? How else could you not see the guys point??
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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FOREST MANAGEMENT tangent (OT)... guns suck anyway:
If you think a 1980's debate about the difference between basal area and SDI sums up the goings on in the Basin... ah, fuk it, never mind!
Those detailed plans of yours... what equipment were you planning to use? The thinning/logging equipment back then was HEAVY and had a HUGE impact on the soils (that was my specialty here). If you think pulling rock out of the Cloudburst Canyon debris slide is going to cause damage... oh boy! I was still dealing with erosion from decades old landings and skid trails. The equipment they use now exerts ~6-8 psi on the soil... less than a human foot print. Maybe you were planning on using hand crews back in the 1980's... if so, you would still be working on the N side of the Angora area when the fire started in 2007.
The Angora fire would have never gone down like it did had things been done in 82.
THAT is an absurd claim. Besides, why would an enlightened person like you promote the suppression of a PERFECTLY NATURAL FORCE OF NATURE that has existed in the region for centuries. The natural fire return interval is ~50-100 years (if memory serves), so it was high time it burned anyway. It sucks that people lost their houses... but it obviously didn't suck THAT bad considering the size of the replacement homes!
As you may recall, that area is riddled with networks of riparian corridors and sensitive soils (peatlands, etc). I'm guessing you didn't assess the soils in your plan. If it makes you feel any better, the Vegetation Management department was still pretty short-sighted and narrow-minded when I was there. Thank God "big D" showed up, he seems to be the only one willing and/or able to look at the big picture... hell of a brewer too.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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I've been working for the last 15 years with the USFS, as a volunteer mainly on trails. I am, though, one of few c-certifier saw instructors in the region, so I know trees far better than the average person.
Believe it or not, although he expresses himself poorly, I am in full agreement with Ron, with respect to forest management and health.
For anyone to take the position that "a forest can take care of itself" is ignoring the fact that the Sierra forests have been managed by humans by many hundreds of years...to a large degree to the detriment of the forest.
My observation of the forest, and what I teach new rangers, is that wherever I go, I see an unhealthy forest....FAR too dense, with FAR too little fire.
The problem is often context.
Someone on the "Photo of half dome from the valley" thread mentioned that it must have been much easier to see the Sierra in years gone by when there wasn't smog.
No!
What there was INSTEAD, was virtually constant fires burning at low levels all during the spring, summer, and fall....because fires were not put out, there was no way to do it. Before they were driven out, Indians set fires in the forests constantly as a management tool.
Well, problem now, is that we have people living in the foothills and valleys, and air quality is a very significant issue. You can't just light the forest on fire.
So now we have ourselves in a trap. The accumulation of fuel year-to-year, is HUGE. You can go in with machinery like masticators, but it is enormously expensive, and definitely leaves tracks.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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You might as well be arguing to remove half the cars on the road. Hell, they only have 1 car per 10 people in Namibia and they get along just fine without them, and they have wayyyy fewer auto deaths per 100,000 pedestrians who don't even drive, so you should get that number too!
Shouldn't only the taxi drivers carry? Or I mean, drive? Just professionals in uniforms? TSA agents maybe? That would work. Technically. But there would be jerks who would steal cars and run people over still, and when that is a sport in your society, where kids grow up being imprinted with that as a primary use of a car, where TV, video games, news, all bombard them with the same use of cars over and over and over for 20 some years - what do you think they will do when they are mad? They will commandeer a vehicle. That is what is happening now, and what will continue to happen.
Because your media got you whipped up into a frenzy about this event you are chasing it. If you looked at it compared to other causes of death in your country you would realize that with your effort you could really make a difference if you got into public health or something. But that's not what trolling the Taco is about, is it?
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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I've been working for the last 15 years with the USFS, as a volunteer mainly on trails. I am, though, one of few c-certifier saw instructors in the region, so I know trees far better than the average person.
Believe it or not, although he expresses himself poorly, I am in full agreement with Ron, with respect to forest management and health.
For anyone to take the position that "a forest can take care of itself" is ignoring the fact that the Sierra forests have been managed by humans by many hundreds of years...to a large degree to the detriment of the forest.
My observation of the forest, and what I teach new rangers, is that wherever I go, I see an unhealthy forest....FAR too dense, with FAR too little fire.
The problem is often context.
Someone on the "Photo of half dome from the valley" thread mentioned that it must have been much easier to see the Sierra in years gone by when there wasn't smog.
No!
What there was INSTEAD, was virtually constant fires burning at low levels all during the spring, summer, and fall....because fires were not put out, there was no way to do it. Before they were driven out, Indians set fires in the forests constantly as a management tool.
Well, problem now, is that we have people living in the foothills and valleys, and air quality is a very significant issue. You can't just light the forest on fire.
So now we have ourselves in a trap. The accumulation of fuel year-to-year, is HUGE. You can go in with machinery like masticators, but it is enormously expensive, and definitely leaves tracks.
Ha I knew those indjuns started the globe warming!..ii mean climate change,,um well extreme weather ouum...
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
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jghedge, if you need stats from other countries to back up changes in yours, if you can't understand that you that you can't remove the salt from a baked loaf, if you can't understand the concept of differences in societies, if you have lived 20 miles from your parents your whole life, if solving a crime in your neighborhood is hard because everyone has the same DNA and there are no dental records, then I can't take your arguments seriously!
I'm sure you'll create the society you wish for soon enough. EDIT: You'll get the laws you want, but you have no idea what kind of society that will create.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Just a note there are just under 200k hospital error deaths per year in the U.S. so that means you are six times more likely to die in a US hospital than a British one on a percentage of the population basis.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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jghedge. You didn't vote to put locks on cockpit doors. You didn't even install them. You didn't DO anything.
I do know what you mean, and I know where you are coming from, it's a debilitating standpoint taught to you by your bipolar society. I'm not arguing the typical Democrat vs. Republican thing and saying you did it because whatever side you are on did it while in office. That's an american way of thinking which your arguments default to so when you do it with someone who isn't one of those two it is ineffective.
EDIT: nope, I never watched that movie.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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Just a note there are just under 200k hospital error deaths per year in the U.S. so that means you are six times more likely to die in a US hospital than a British one on a percentage of the population basis.
but wait!
assuming the above is true, how can this be since we in the USA proudly claim we have the "best" healthcare system in the world?
how can Britain, which insures all citizens through its government program, have six times LESS deaths than our magnificent private system?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
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If you think the American Civil war solved slavery or racism - I know a lot of people who would beg to differ.
Those people have also lived in and out of the US and can compare the effectiveness of that unlike you.
Some of these people lecture internationally for anti-slavery NGO's like Exodus Cry.
They say that there are more slaves now than then, but now humans aren't trafficked for cotton picking. Nice effect eh? Your news headlines are prettier though. No cotton picking in the US. I'm sure you are happy with the state of your society though.
Heck, I was in Atlanta with my brother-in-law and everyone was heckling us, the cops told us to get off the streets. I couldn't figure out why - until he traded shirts with me. Black guys can't wear a certain color, and white guys can't wear the other. I'm not saying your society is stupid, but racism is alive and well outside your news headlines.
But since there aren't studies and numbers attached, and you don't see it in the news that you will dismiss this as false and bury your head back into the sand!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
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Ron, IF you ever demonstrate that you have the intelligence to actually read and understand the ACA. only then can you shoot your ignorant mouth off about it.
The ONLY reason you "oppose" the ACA is because a black Democrat signed it into law
You don't know your animal stuffing ass from second base about the ACA.
Stick to killing things, not many people will question your "opinions" about that.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 29, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
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Ron, you DID NOT address those issues. I know because I was the first one to do a statistical analysis (repeatable, verifiable, you know...) on the effects of using thinning equipment in SEZs. The resulting protocol is now THE ONLY reason anyone is allowed to do mechanical thinning in SEZs in the Basin.
FWIW, it is now the regional water quality board that is putting up a fuss over many of the fuels treatments. They have legitimate concerns about water and soil quality and it is their job to deal with those issues.
All I can say is THANK GOD people like you, who KNOW they are "right" even when they are dead wrong, rarely make it into positions of power.
ZERO erosion, ZERO rehab, ZERO chipping/burning/piling and a veritable lawn of repro the following spring.
Just 100% bullshit! Give me some stand numbers, I will pull them up on my GIS layer and SHOW you the lasting effects your actions had.
Ken M, you will get no disagreement from me regarding the need to manage our forests. But if you claim you knew all there was to know about timber management impacts to forest soils 30 years ago, just because you knew how to fell a tree, I'll probably call you an idiot.
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