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tarek
climber
berkeley
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"Yet today’s achievement is a testament to the greatness of our country and the determination of the American people."
This I found disturbing. That executing one man shows our greatness as a nation. That killing a holed-up human being is an "achievement." A testament to the greatness of our country would be __. Fill in the blank yourself.
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dirtbag
climber
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A final comment. Had we bombed the compound we would have telegraphed a lack of commitment. An unwillingness to risk danger. A willingness to have innocents killed so that we might be in no danger. A willingness to accept "once over lightly."
Excellent point.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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dirtbag - That it took the President 16 hrs to realize that if he decided against taking UBL and it became public knowledge his political career
would be over that day.
Americans would surround the White House with torches and pitchforks 'asking' for a face-to-face meeting with Osama's protector.
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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There is probably no point in publishing a picture of Bin Laden.
jstan - my sense is that we underestimate the strength of our survivor bias illogic.
From MSNBC:
CIA director Leon Panetta told NBC News Tuesday that a photo proving the death of Osama bin Laden "would be presented to the public," but the comment quickly drew a response from the White House saying no decision has yet been made.
"The bottom line is that, you know, we got bin Laden and I think we have to reveal to the rest of the world the fact that we were able to get him and kill him," Panetta said in an interview with Nightly News.
Our CIA Director believes that we need to show the photos in order to convince people that bin Laden is dead.
Our mythology has convinced us that we can individually replicate the information process that is being reported by the government and media. We believe that our own internal individual facial recognition software, based on our personal experience looking at photos of bin Laden that the government and media have provided for us, and a photo that the government is giving us of bin Laden after he’s been shot in the head, is more accurate than all of the information that the government has used in identifying him.
We mistrust the information coming from the government and media, so we need to personally verify that bin Laden is dead by using information that the government and media is giving us.
Believing in god - now that's wacky!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Libs -- do you now renounce your idiotic view that Bush caused 9-11?
How you could be so completely obtuse and still function as a human being is beyond me. Certainly it is likely that someone like Bin Laden helped make 911 happen. We don't really know if it was Bin Laden because we have only been told that, we haven't been shown any proof. And since our government has shown itself to be fully capable of telling misleading lies, it is only prudent that one question their actions, especially when those actions can lead to new wars.
But none of that has anything to do with whether someone in our government sanctioned that attack. It definitely took someone like Bin Laden, but that doesn't rule out that someone in our government could have helped the plan along.
But whatever.. Bury your head in the sand if you want. Accept every last thing the government tells you and be a good little citizen. Our power brokers rejoice at leading unquestioning fools.
Its funny/sad how its okay for someone like Oliely to question the government, but not okay for a liberal to do the same. If Bill does it, he is being a true American. But if a liberal does it, he is being UnAmerican and should move out of the country. What a crock..
.............
Its also funny/sad how people like Suap think that because you protest a war, that you are against any use of force. That is just ridiculous, since most liberals support the use of force in apprehending criminals. Even deadly force. And more democrat/liberals have served in the military during war time that the republicans, but the republicans are supposedly the party that protects us. What a crock.
As for Bin Laden.. Obama did make the effort to capture him. Does it look hinky? yes.. it looks like he put a kill him no matter what order into place.. But what if it wasn't Obama? What if it was the CIA going around the president? What if the president wanted him captured alive, but said kill him if he resists? Would that be so bad? We allow our police to shoot to kill if they are being threatened when they arrest a potentially violent person. So what is the difference here? Just because it looks like they went in on orders to kill, doesn't meant that they didn't have orders to capture him if they could.
It appears to me that the only rule he might have broke was to enter a foreign country. And I say "might have" because those countries have very real problems. Obama could have easily gotten permission to enter the country with troops, with the proviso that the Pakistani government would then denounce it afterwards in order for them to protect themselves from their own people.
But since we aren't suppose to question anything.. I guess we should all just shut up and accept whatever our government tells us.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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proud young reservist fattrad
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dirtbag
climber
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dirtbag - That it took the President 16 hrs to realize that if he decided against taking UBL and it became public knowledge his political career
would be over that day.
Americans would surround the White House with torches and pitchforks 'asking' for a face-to-face meeting with Osama's protector.
You do realize that it was not at all certain OBL was in the house?
And that there was significant risk to the nation, civilians near the house, and the seals themsleves in undertaking this...in addition to this being a blatant violation of international law and a blow to our relations with Pakistan.
The days of cowboying our foreign policy are thankfully over.
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jstan
climber
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Jeff:
Plame had been in the field. When outed opposition intelligence had only to go to their logs of who met with whom and when to get sensitive information.
No offense intended. But I just want it understood.
I was never that young.
Ever.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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As no one, not even the vainglorious al Qaeda propaganda machine, has so far claimed that the US didn't kill bin Laden, it seems safe to assume that it did. No doubt someone will eventually pop up asking "Where's the body?", or even impersonating bin Laden, but just self-serving stunts.
Photos, DNA, and on-site identification by the wife are in any case only part of the evidence. The US has apparently been hot on the trail since mid-2010, and likely has a variety of other circumstantial and even direct evidence confirming the identity, although much of it they may not want to release, as it might negatively effect other CIA efforts.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Plame was a desk jockey when "outed", never to see the "field" again. She and her husband had an agenda, one against their boss, George Bush.
This is so incredibly ignorant. It wasn't the loss of plame that was the problem. Her usefulness as an undercover agent likely was over. It was all the contacts she had over the years, who still might have been in place but are now potentially exposed that was the problem.
Edit: Jstan beat me to it..
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jstan
climber
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And thanks to you John for you input.
Valerie Plame and her husband both did have an agenda. Jeff is right.
That agenda was the mandate of the CIA.
1. a true assessment of what is faced by our country
2. our national interest.
The Bush administration's interest was not in the interest of the US.
Edit:
Best makes an excellent point above. In our revolutionary war no single leader could have brought together the 13 states if the motion had not already been there in each of the states. Bin laden's role involved using the oil money his father had pulled together to fund a larger organizational effort. Not a unique phenomenon.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Ahhh, now liberals are all OK with assassinating folks on foreign soil, and extracting information using waterboarding, and holding Islamofascists at Gitmo, and using secret prisons.
One word -- Classssssssssssssic!
SUAP,
Where do you come up with this doo-doo? This poop?
The answer is NO! we are not OK with thuggery and the ways of the GOP Neo-cons.
And if you think for a minute that OBL orchestrated 9-11-01 and pulled all this off with smoking, drinking, and night-club bar hoping "Islamic Jihadists" of Saudi decent using boxcutter knives, and then he orchestrated his entire family to be safely flown out of the USA immediately after "The Big Party" then you are really clue-less. Man, he could do all of that, and then from a cave?
Like I said before, if he could do all of that, then he is the most brilliant War Strategist the World has ever seen or known. We should be studying his strategy in every War College around the World. He did all of that and on a shoe-string budget? Simply and absolutely amazing.
How did OBL know and plan 9-11 to occur the very day the entire DoD and Armed Forces were going to do massive war games, playing the same very scenerio? How did OBL get the DoD and US Armed Forces to stand-down during a massive hi-jacking with 4 commercial jets involved? Read: Crossing the Rubicon, that first exposed the massive lies of 9-11-01. If you want to get into it we can. We have done so here on ST many times and those threads are easily pulled up. Tons of physical evidence and means, motive, and opportunity evidence to prove OBL couldn't have done it and that 9-11 was LIHOP at the least, and MIHOP at the most. Even Bible Code says so.
We do not know the full story, nor do we know exactly what happened on 9-11-01. What we do know is that the evidence now known invalidates the Official Conspiracy Theory (OCT) as put forth by the 9-11 Commission Report. The report was a complete sham. 9-11 has never been properly investigated. 9-11 was a "Rumor of War," a lie of War. A lie to get us into War. And it worked big-time: Afghanistan, Iraq, and more to come. War profiteering out of control.
What we do know is that TPTB they are lying, and lying Big-time.
Release all the Pentagon film footage from all the security cameras from 9-11-01. Waiting. Still waiting. How long is this gonna take? . . .
What we have here with OBL was an assassination. TPTB took out their own former CIA asset to shut him up. They certainly couldn't risk having him face his accusers in a court of law. Too many dark secrets would be revealed. They took out their own "go to terrorist" and "whenever necessary and needed bogeyman."
That is what has happened. That is all. They knew where he was for a very long time. Wikileaks has already proven that.
Obama is the best Republican President we have had since Eisenhower. Now he gave himself nearly an automatic re-election to boot. He is one smart dude. But I'm still waiting for "Change I Can Believe In," that I voted for. I didn't want more Bush/Cheney, even if it is the lite beer variety.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabon movin on
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exactly
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I keep waiting to read what this thread is about. Bin Laden's Dead what? Laden's dead courier? Dead son?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Ron said Now cmon,,,a year ago you ALL were talking up Obama AND the GLOBAL POWER thing.
Commas aside, do YOU even understand what that means? I don't.
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jstan
climber
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Got a breaking news flag on the screen.
"Obama has decided not to release Bin Laden photos."
Like I said earlier.
No Point.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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That's right Jstan, breaking news:
Obama: I will not release photos:
In an interview with Steve Kroft for this Sunday's 60 Minutes, President Obama says he won't release post-mortem images of Osama bin Laden taken to prove his death.
Video of the comments will appear on the CBS "Evening News" on Wednesday.
Republican House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers said Wednesday that the Obama administration should not release the gruesome post-mortem images, saying it could complicate the job for American troops overseas. Rogers told CBS News he has seen a post-mortem photo.
"The risks of release outweigh the benefits," he said. "Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East."
"Imagine how the American people would react if Al Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet," he continued. "Osama bin Laden is not a trophy - he is dead and let's now focus on continuing the fight until Al Qaida has been eliminated."
Skeptics have called on the United State
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shut up and pull
climber
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GOTTA LOVE THIS POST:
Obama is the best Republican President we have had since Eisenhower. Now he gave himself nearly an automatic re-election to boot. He is one smart dude. But I'm still waiting for "Change I Can Believe In," that I voted for. I didn't want more Bush/Cheney, even if it is the lite beer variety.
LAUGHING. SO. HARD. MUST. LIE. DOWN.
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