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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 16, 2011 - 09:43am PT
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Bhunter,
Thanks for posting that article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16workers.html?_r=1&hp
Nuclear reactor operators say that their profession is typified by the same kind of esprit de corps found among firefighters and elite military units. Lunchroom conversations at reactors frequently turn to what operators would do in a severe emergency.
The consensus is always that they would warn their families to flee before staying at their posts to the end, said Michael Friedlander, a former senior operator at three American power plants for a total of 13 years.
“You’re certainly worried about the health and safety of your family, but you have an obligation to stay at the facility,” he said. “There is a sense of loyalty and camaraderie when you’ve trained with guys, you’ve done shifts with them for years.”
These guys are heroes. They know what it will cost them personally to stop this.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 16, 2011 - 09:46am PT
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DD,
Thanks for posting that. Great info. I'm gonna print a copy of your article. Is there an online version of the film?
DOUG COPP'S ARTICLE ON THE: "TRIANGLE OF LIFE"
2 thumbs up.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 16, 2011 - 10:06am PT
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rrrADAM,
Not going to keep arguing with you. You would be arguing with France's ASN nuclear safety authority, not me.
From before the French said it is a 5-6 out of 7.
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=212107
PARIS - France's ASN nuclear safety authority said on Monday the nuclear accident in Japan could be classed as level 5 or 6 on the international scale of 1 to 7, on a par with the 1979 US Three Mile Island meltdown.
The estimate of the severity of the accident at Tokyo Electric Power Co's Fukushima Daiichi plant, based on the ASN's assessment of data provided by Japan, is above the rating of four given by Japan's nuclear safety agency.
"Level four is a serious level," ASN President Andre-Claude Lacoste told a news conference, but added: "We feel that we are at least at level five or even at level 6."
I said . . .
On MSNBC just now, the French are saying that it could easily reach a 7 (out of 7) making it equal to Chernobyl if not more. It could turn out to be the worst Nuclear Reactor disaster ever.
You said . . .
This alone shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the differences in design, reactor type, and containment between the Fuku and Chernobyl sites.
It's analogous to saying, that a solo aid climber with a huge rack and lots of experience can suffer the same or worse fate than a free soloist if both were on the upper pitches of El Cap when a severe storm blew in.
Once again you would arguing with France's ASN nuclear safety authority, not me. I'm guessing they know what they are talking about. They are not comparing nuclear designs. They are comparing the emergency situation and the critical nature of the disaster. We have at least 4 nuclear reactors that are serious problems now and nothing is stopped. The disaster is continuing to unfold.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 16, 2011 - 10:06am PT
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The French Embassy in Tokyo has advised its citizens to evacuate Tokyo and move further south as the Australian Embasy has already done while all the major airlines from Europe have cancelled flights to Tokyo and are only flying to Osaka instead. The Chinese have just announced that they will evacuate 35,000 of their citizens from Japan in the next few days.
Elevated Radiation has been reported at both American bases in Tokyo and Americans there are being advised to stay indoors.
Another large group of military people and supplies just left Okinawa by plane for northern Japan. All of the American ground support is being done through our base in Misawa, Japan and then trucked south along the main east coast highway. Our efforts have been given the name Operation Tomodachi - Operation Friendship.
Misawa Air Base is receiving only 40% normal electricity. Gasoline is rationed to 10 gallons per car once a person has less than 1/4 tank.
http://www.misawa.af.mil/
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 16, 2011 - 10:27am PT
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Fructose asked:
(1) Were you in Okinawa when it had the 7.0 in 2010?
(2) What's the highest point there on the island? Looks on a map it's got some 500' elevations. Do you all there feel there's plenty of high escapes in the event you had a tsunami like the one that hit Sendai?
I was in Okinawa last year when we had the 7.0 earthquake. Most of our quakes here are a kind of bump bump as a chunk slides under the tectonic plate and it settles back down. Last year's was one of two big rolling quakes I have experienced here, but not the worst. The worst one happened in the 1980's when the ceiling of the concrete building I was in appeared to undulate in waves like the ocean.
I did spend two months up at Misawa Air Base in far northern Honshu about 6 years ago and experienced a rolling quake once or twice a week my whole time there. That many quakes made me feel rather uneasy. At the time, people said it was good to have small ones as that prevented a big one from happening. Obviously that was wrong.
As for Okinawa, we are more protected from quakes than mainland Japan. The tectonic plates are further east and we are surrounded by coral reefs as well as sea walls. The island has a backbone of mountains going down the middle so it is fairly easy to get to high ground. Also helpful is the fact that all the houses and utility poles are made of reinforced concrete to protect from an average of 5 big typhoons a year. I note that concrete houses in mainland Japan survived the tsunami whereas wooden house became kindling.
All in all, Japan is a land of natural disasters and these are part of what has formed the Japanese character. Some people think this is even the reason Japan became the first Asian country to modernize. They were used to picking up the pieces and re-inventing themselves so they recovered quickly after Admiral Perry shot his way in.The Chinese it is argued, were used to being the center of the east Asian world and lived in a more stable environment which made it much harder for them to adapt and change.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Mar 16, 2011 - 11:06am PT
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I was very impressed with the article Delhi Dog posted by Doug Copp on earthquake survival techniques.
Unfortunately, the American Red Cross disagrees with his many of his assertions. http://www.bpaonline.org/Emergencyprep/arc-on-doug-copp.html
Here's a link to Myth-buster organization: Snopes.com and what they have to say on the subject.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/triangle.asp
Sorry to be a downer on the subject, but there are real concerns that Mr. Copp is sharing information that might get more people killed or injured in a U.S. earthquake.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 16, 2011 - 11:38am PT
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The Emperor spoke to the people of Japan today - a sign that they are really worried about public panic.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 16, 2011 - 11:45am PT
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people want answers even when there are none.
how bad will the reactor problems be? at this point, no one can tell, and it will take years to investigate the full extent of what happened.
the French authorities are providing information based on very incomplete information, but they somehow feel compelled to do so. Given that there is no basis for providing that information, they err on the side of caution, preparing people for the worse.
radioactive elements have chemical attributes and those attributes can contribute to the health problems by concentrating the elements in various parts of the body. Cesium behaves like Potassium and will be incorporated into the same biological processes. Cs137 beta-decays (emits an electron) to Ba137 which is stable, but it often ends up in an isomer, which then decays by gamma emission in a minute or so. The Cs will also gamma decay.
Strontium 90, Sr90, is another fission product which has chemical properties similar to Calcium. It beta-decays to Yttrium 90, Y90, and beta-decays in about 64 hours. It has uses as a medical isotope. This decay ends up in Zirconium 90, Z90 which is stable.
Both Sr90 and Cs137 have 20ish year half lives... that is, half of the isotopes decay in that time period... The atmospheric testing of the 50s put a "pulse" of these radioisotopes into the environment which is measurable today as the elements where incorporated into biological processes.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 16, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
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The latest from the MIT guys
http://mitnse.com/
News Updates and Current Status of Facilities
Posted on March 16, 2011 10:59 am UTC by mitnse
Units 1 and 2: TEPCO has released estimates of the levels of core damage at these two reactors: 70% damage at Unit 1 and 33% at Unit 2. They have also stated that Unit 1 is being adequately cooled.
Outlook: It is difficult to make conjectures at this point about the final disposition of the damaged fuel without further information. However, during our only operating experience with a partially melted and subsequently cooled core, Three Mile Island, the fuel mass was fully contained by the reactor vessel, resulting in minimal radiation release to the public. A decision is currently being made on how to best supply cooling water to Unit 2.
Unit 3: At 8:34 AM JST, white smoke was seen billowing from the roof of Unit 3. The source of this smoke was not investigated because workers were evacuated due to radiation levels. These levels had been fluctuating during the early morning hours before rising to 1 millisievert/hr around the time that the smoke appeared. It was unclear at the time whether these rising levels were a result of some new event at Unit 3, or were lingering as a result of Unit 2’s recent troubles.
Outlook: In order to provide some perspective on worker doses to this point, radiation sickness sets in at roughly 1000 millisieverts. A future post will deal further with the health effects of various amounts of radiation. Response to the smoke seen at Unit 3 appears to be in an information gathering phase at this point. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano speculated that the smoke from Unit 3 might be the result of a similar wetwell explosion to that at Unit 2, but there is not enough information currently available to support or refute that statement.
Units 4-6: Flames at Unit 4 were reported to be the result of a pump fire, which caused a small explosion that damaged the roof of Unit 4 (See TEPCO’s press release on the most recent fire at http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031606-e.html); . Efforts at Units 4-6 are focused on supplying cooling water to the spent fuel storage pools. Temperatures in these pools began to rise in the days after the quake. At the time of the quake, only Unit 4’s core had been fully offloaded to the spent fuel pool for maintenance; roughly 1/3 of the cores of Units 5 and 6 had been offloaded. This explains in part why the temperature in Unit 4’s pool has risen faster than at the other reactors: it has a higher inventory, both in fuel volume and in heat load.
Outlook: The fuel within these pools needs to remain covered with cooling water in order to prevent the low levels of decay heat present from causing it to melt, and also in order to provide shielding. Boiling of the water results in reduction of the water level in the pools, so ifwhen the pools get hot enough for boiling to begin, water needs to be added to replace what boils off. The staff of Unit 4 plan to begin pumping water to the spent fuel pool from ground level as soon as radiation levels from Unit 3 are low enough for them to return. This pumping operation should be relatively easier than injection of cooling water into the reactor vessels at Units 1-3 because the pools are at atmospheric pressure.
Sources: TEPCO, World Nuclear News
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krahmes
Social climber
Stumptown
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Mar 16, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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people want answers even when there are none
I get what you’re saying and agree to a point; but real time sensor data adjacent to the plant and the type and composition of radioactivity needs to be made available. Meaningless terms like the radioactivity is decreasing are throw away terms: Decreasing from what? The news every morning since Saturday is that after another explosion, the radioactivity is decreasing. The place looks like a war zone.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 16, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
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Re: Fritz, Delhi Dog
The triangle of life is, indeed, nonsense. The main concern in a modern building is getting clunked on the head from stuff falling down (books, dishes, the fridge, light fixtures), so getting under a table or desk is a good idea.
Running outside is generally considered to be a BAD idea, because building facades and windows come down in a shower of death and can clunk you in the head as you are running out the door (This has, indeed, been the case).
Buildings in the US are not likely to collapse. Unless you work in downtown Oakland...
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 16, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Haven't read through the entire article yet, as I'm on my lunch break, but it does have some good pics, and appears to cover a bunch:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366670/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-French-claim-scale-nuclear-disaster-hidden.html
Just looking at those pics, it is apparent that the reactor buildings of some units have sustained significant damage, which would lead me to believe that the secondary containment structures have been breached. That said, there are other things that could cause such damage and dose rate spikes, so even I am speculating here. As was said above, by Ed, it will be some time, likely years, before we know exactly what has happened, and what failed, and to what degree.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Mar 16, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
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Doug Copp has been debunked many times in the last five years. Don't let your urge to be free of dogma and find fault with conventional advice/wisdom/studies get you killed!
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
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Doug Copp who runs the American Rescue org or whatever is full of sh*t and has absolutely no credential among rescuers in any shape or form and yet, he had been under microscope by LEs for some time for running scams .
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
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Ok, learning here.
I didn't know squat about Doug Copp before and his "Triangle of Life" . . .
Apparently he has been debunked numerous times from what people have said here.
Ok, so maybe 2 thumbs down.
So, get under a strong table or lie next to it?
Personally, I like door frames. I always run to the nearest door frame and stand under it. If the poo-poo hits the fan I can still take off and run.
(On the day of Earthquakes I try to stay out of high-rise buildings and concrete/brick buildings. Wood and stucco dwellings are good. Just a premonition I get. Ok, I'm kidding about the premonition part. Got nothing.)
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
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We know politicians are lying when their lips are moving so when they
tell us 'No Danger of Fallout in the US' its almost instinctive to
think the bastards are lying again out of habit.
The tsunami made it all the way across the Pacific and we occasionally get
dust from Mongolia deposited on the snow turning it red so the idea that
radioactive particles can also make it across is reasonable. Will they?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
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Will they?
Well, that is the billion dollar question isn't it?
Can't hurt to prepare. If it doesn't happen then you have gotten yourself and your family ready for possible similar related disasters that could happen right here in the USA.
Fallout from Chernobyl did make it around the World. True the amount was very little. But it is measurable/detectable.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 16, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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Just read all of the article I linked on th eprevious page... I agree with most of it, but not all. There is a lot of useful and correct information in it.
To note... They measured up to 400 mSv at the site for a brief time, then it dropped. Using the inverse square law, if they measured that at the fence, at twice the distance (2 X distance from fence to source of radiation), it would be only 100 mSv, and twice that would be 25 mSv, and twice that (just 8 times the distance from the source of radiation to the fence) it would be just 6.25 mSv... Point being, you don't have to get very far before even that "elevated spike" would be insignificant.
It's the contamination that is of concern, as that can be blown by the wind. That said, the dose rates of that radiation (contamination) will be very low. It's injesting that contamination that is of concern, and that is dependand on type and amount. The Plutonium is a BAD thing (the worst), depending on how much may escape and where it goes.
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