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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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Has anyone else on ST driven the Extra-terrestrial Hwy. in Nevada, Hwy. 375?
Has anyone been to Rachel, NV?
How about driving up to the gate at Area 51?
How about Roswell, NM?
I've done all those things with my wife and family. Pretty cool to do even if you think it is all bunk. Just to ckeck-out the legend and the stories. Very cool to do on vacation.
The best film I have seen on Area 51 from the History Channel:
UFO Hunters - Area 51 Revealed 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGOopaxooWs
By the way, Bob Lazar is still around, he has his own science education and supply company. He has some neat products (there are couple products and books I have my eye on purchasing) and even some from the US Government purchase product from him. Very interesting.
United Nuclear:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/
He doesn't hide what he did in Area 51:
http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=page_4
George Knapp, Investigative Reporter
Bob Lazar: The Man Behind Area 51
http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=3369879
Good article on Bob Lazar and United Nuclear from Wired Magazine:
Don't Try This at Home, Garage chemistry used to be a rite of passage for geeky kids. But in their search for terrorist cells and meth labs, authorities are making a federal case out of DIY science.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry.html
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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let me set the record straight on my thinking on the observations of "UFOs"
I do not think that people who report these phenomena are crazy, bat-shit or otherwise.
My thinking, however, on the reason for these phenomena is to first try to understand them in terms of a natural explanation, that encompasses the observations, and to seek additional observations that help to better quantify the phenomena, as an ends to understanding it.
While I do not believe that this is being overly closed minded, I can see that some enthusiasts of a particular idea, that there are alien visitations, might feel this is too conservative and likely to be a nonproductive line of thinking... let's just jump over all that detail stuff and get to the only conclusion we know it has to be! Being a scientist requires learning a craft, and there are professional craftspeople who make a career out of practicing that craft, and others who dabble in the craft. The quality of the product produced can usually, but not always, be credited to the knowledge and skill of the craftsperson. Your mother was right, to get better you have to "practice, practice, practice." Professionals spend a lot of time practicing.
Another thing, which is perhaps a professional habit born from many experiences, is not to jump to the "least likely" conclusion before having worked through all of the "more likely" possibilities. In this case, UFOs, from my own thinking the possibility that it is some interesting natural phenomena occurring in the atmosphere is orders of magnitude more likely than the possibility that it represents the visitation by some intelligence. That is my opinion. I can back it up by doing a set of calculations that inform my opinion, but it is certainly true that were physical evidence provided that showed these were alien craft, my opinion would be proved incorrect. I've got no problem with that.
I'm sure that some may be intimidated by people with scientific credentials, and given the currently popular anti-elitist attitude of the American public, being perceived as part of an elite class (scientist in my case) I could be singled out as one of "them" vs. one of "us" especially where ad hominem argument technique is so important, as in an internet forum, e.g. SuperTopo.
To my defense I can only say that of all the posters to this thread, I believe I'm among the few that uses their real identity, and as such, you can find everything there is about me that appears on the web. You can read my abbreviated biography, you can review my published papers and remarks, you can know a lot more about me than I can know about any of you without talking to you, and in terms of this thread, you would have to identify your associated avatar. Many of you I know, many I do not.
I chose to use my name for a number of reasons, mostly, though, that I would post only what I would feel comfortable being associated with my name. Consequently, I do think carefully before pushing the "Post this Reply" button... probably skipping that step 20% to 30% of the time on "OT" threads.
Because I believe that scientists should be more engaged in public discussion I'm willing to wade into these sorts of topics and give my opinion and reveal my way of thinking, and perhaps interpret what my view of the scientific consensus is and how that works.
I'll continue to do that, and under my real name.
EDIT: in my hubris I neglected to credit Mike Bolte as posting under his name too, perhaps I just thought he exhibited better judgment then me! He's actually an astronomer...
Others on this thread who are identified by their avatar:
James Doty
Douglas Rhiner
WBraun
Jim Brennan
Tom Cochrane
donini
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MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
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May 15, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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rokjoxSo whats it to you if a guy in his mid-fifties over cranks his ascent, and stops for a breather? It's not like I am asking YOU to ride with me.
I've ridden with you/around you before and you got smoked. Even your "friends" laugh at you on the trails and they have that cute nik for you, probably only used behind your back since you are so volatile. ha ha ha. So funny!
Hitting up the spoke and then the gulch later if you want to suck some wind and eat some dust.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
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Mike Bolte,
You should not keep vanishing your contributions to threads. C'mon, if Carl Sagan and Steven Hawkings can talk about UFOs/Aliens, you as an Astronomer can too.
C'mon stop vanishing your posts.
I think it is ok to post to forums using a made-up nick-name as long as you treat others the way you would like to be treated, The Golden Rule. Sometimes people want to contribute and stay anonymous. Me, I post as Klimmer, but have many times posted my real name. Depends on the context of the thread.
If someone wants to know who I am just read this post. Some (I won't mention any names) crossed the line big-time. But that is a whole other story. It is OK, to make people work just a little to figure out who you are, helps on keeping down unnecessary and unwanted emails or worse.
You really can't hide from Uncle Sam. He knows who each of us are. That is why I keep talking and saying things as though they are listening. Because they are. Yes, even here on ST.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
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The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.
 Albert Einstein
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Albert Einstein
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
Albert Einstein
Never stop questioning . . .
http://www.aphids.com/cgi-bin/quotes.pl?act=ShowListingsForCat&Category=E
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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May 15, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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take me to your dealer.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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Once again, some say there are no physical evidences of UFOs/Aliens or ETs, yet the crop-circle phenomenon is getting more and more prevelant around the World and more and more complex.
Sure some are hoaxed, no doubt. Even admitted to. Yet some are very, very complex and bizarrely beautiful and have all kinds of weird remains and strange physical evidences on the ground that indicates it isn't hoaxing humans doing it. We can't even approach the complexity of even hoaxing them given many, many hours to do so, let alone leave all the physical trace evidence and do it within a matter of a few minutes or hours. And then also don't forget to add and include the witnessed bizarre lights hovering above the field and scene, just prior to discovering the crop circle design.
So can humans hoax these kind of crop circles that have these features and characteristics?:
Witnessed lights and UFOs above the fields
Wonderfully complex mathematical designed crop circles left after sighting
Messages within the designed crop circle
Do it all within minutes to a few hours
Leave radioactive physical traces, strange burn marks on the plant stocks, and many other bizarre physical evidence left at the scene
Government entities arriving within a short amount of time of the creation of the crop circle design
Can hoaxers pull all that off? I don't think so.
4 good resources I'm aware of:
Government Circles [Paperback]
Colin Andrews (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Government-Circles-Colin-Andrews/dp/1442138556/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1B0LVK64WNFV2&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
Crop Circles - Quest for Truth (2002)
Colin Andrews (Actor), William Gazecki (Director)
http://www.amazon.com/Crop-Circles-Quest-Colin-Andrews/dp/B0000YTPG6/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1QX1M8E7D56OP&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
Colin Andrews Blog:
http://colinandrews.blogspot.com/2009/10/policeman-watched-three.html
Colin Andrew's Website:
http://colinandrews.net/index.html
http://colinandrews.net/UFO-PoliceSergeant-SilburyHill.html
We're gonna need some images . . .
Man-made????
The Alien at Crabwood Farm House
http://mmmgroup.altervista.org/e-crab.html
See also:
Dutch Centre for Crop Circle Studies
http://www.dcccs.org/
This is a really good website that goes into the most common questions concerning crop-circles:
http://www.circularsite.com/feiten-eng.htm
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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Rokjox,
It has been decoded see this website:
The Alien at Crabwood Farm House
http://mmmgroup.altervista.org/e-crab.html
I still do not think this can be man-made, althought the author of the article thinks it might be.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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CROP CIRCLES
FACTS & THEORIES
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On these pages you will find a large number of facts, theories and misunderstandings about crop circles. This informative chapter came about by answering the 21 most frequently asked questions. By clicking the pictogram of the question you would like to be answered, you'll be led to the correct page.
Not just for 'beginners' in the crop circle phenomenon are these useful pages to start with...
http://www.circularsite.com/feiten-eng.htm
Edit:
Reading through this website which is done very well, and informative, linking to many websites and organizations studying the crop circle phenomenon scientifically, they actually do now have the criteria to determine if a crop circle is fake or genuine. Turns out all real crop circles are made with Electro-Magenetic Energy, from a point-source with the energy falling off at the inverse square of the distance (Law), and leave many tell-tale signs and disturbances that can not be faked. All of this can be empirically measured and studied. These evidences can not be faked!
I did not know that. Amazing. They can go to a crop circle and can quickly determine these EM anomalies and instantly know real from fake. Very cool.
And of course only highly evolved intelligences can do this.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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It is called reading comprehension.
I have already said many are hoaxed, but many are not. Read the links and studies that have been done. There are many ground trace evidences that are left with the crop circle that can not be hoaxed.
READ.
Edit:
Actually I would like to rephrase the above. Few are faked, and many more are real. They can instantly scientifically determine fake from real by looking at the EM Energy evidences on the ground and the effect it has on the crop plant species. These EM Energy evidences are either there in abundance (Real) or they are not (Fake).
They can scientifically empirically determine this. Brilliant.
How come I didn't know this before? Some colleges have departments that are researching this phenomenon. Wow!
Someone is not talking this up.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 11:41pm PT
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"Electro-Magenetic Energy, from a point-source with the energy falling off at the inverse square of the distance (Law)"
I guess you don't realize how dumb this makes you sound! What do you reckon it means?
EDIT: "no bending or crushing". So space aliens have lawn mowers. This may be an important clue to their technology.
EDIT#2: Yes RJ. He elected to copy this irrelevant description of how the electric field drops off with distance from a point source because it sounded so scientific. Take an electron, measure the strength of the electric field as a function of distance and it drops off like the one over the distance squared. Has nothing to do with ray guns!
Mike Bolte,
Actually I did write that indicating the evidence they have been finding indicates a EM point source (as opposed to a non-point source), with the effects decreasing away from the center of the crop circles. In physics that is how a point light source behaves as you know. The description is accurate.
So in other words, they can measure the evidence and see it does indeed decrease at the inverse distance square law. In other words, the evidence (the effect), indicates the source (the cause), that was used to create it.
Got a problem with that?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 16, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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I'm still not sure I'm getting the explanation...
isn't it simpler to assume that some clever persons are doing this?
Or put another way, can you prove it is impossible for it to be done by a person?
I hate to feed this particular troll-tag-team of Rokjox and Klimmer, but honestly guys, you are actually barking...
...and why post this stuff here and now? It's just such an obvious shameless troll.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 05:03am PT
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RM,
Very cool.
Ed,
Or put another way, can you prove it is impossible for it to be done by a person?
YES THEY CAN.
Let's just assume that it is done by a person/people hoaxing. So how the heck do they do it?
--Sometimes curious lights are witnessed above the fields at night.
--It would take days of effort to do these designs if you could even possibly do it. Some designs I would say are impossibly complex.
--How do they do it without ever being caught?
--It would take many people not just one.
--How do you even begin to layout some of these complex designs with fallible people doing so on the ground and then at night? Imagine the cluster mess!
--The crop circles usually show up over night. But no one witnessed a bunch of people out there with flashlights, or headlamps making a massive mess of things. It would take an enormous amount of time.
--By the way, some have even shown up during the day. Yet, no one was seen doing it. One moment it isn't there and the next it is, as witnessed by pilots flying over the same region throughout the day!
--No evidence of footprints coming and going, nor within the crop circle itself.
--The plants are often just bent over and not crushed or broken. Still living.
--There are signs of EM energy burns on the plant structures and nodes on the plants having been poped from high energy, perhaps such as Micro-wave. Again from a point source outward from the center.
--Unusual mineral assemblages are sometimes found, such as Fe like micro-spheres throughout the crop cirles. Sometimes they find Silicate microspheres throughout the crop circle.
--They have enough different empirical evidences that are now testable to prove real or hoax. They indeed know the difference.
--Science teams are studying these phenomenon. Papers are being published. Some teams are even associated with Universities.
--Apparently, this hoaxing is world-wide. Apparently a lot of people all over the World have really gotten into hoaxing on a mass level. Where are people finding the time? And you know what? They are just doing all this for a laugh. (sarcasm)
Are you not curious about any of this?
And no it isn't a troll, it is directly relevant to the discussion at hand.
You wanted physical empirical evidence of UFOs/Alien intelligent life. Well, many are pointing to crop circles that just keep popping up all over the place without human intervention, and with very strange and unusual empirical evidence associated with them. Some crop circles are even sending written messages that have been decoded now from purported Aliens. Well, there you go.
BLT RESEARCH TEAM INC.
http://www.bltresearch.com/
Although some modern crop formations are known to have been mechanically-flattened by people, scientific research published by the BLT Research Team in the 1990s has established plant & soil abnormalities which cannot be caused by "pranks with planks".
For details call 617 492 0415 or go to http://www.bltresearch.com
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 16, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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doesn't sound to me like this is impossible, especially as there are known hoaxes....
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 16, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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I think Ed's getting worried. Whatever secret weapons system he is working on, the aliens figured it all out a thousand years ago. Alien arrival = unemployment for earthly physicists. lol Welcome to "displacement"...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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RM,
You have hit on a truth . . .
Why is it that the military is sometimes, well OK, all the time light-years ahead of the public Scientific Community?
Military response to All new technology no matter the source:
Wow, what is it? How can we keep it secret? How can we exploit it? Who cares if it violates the laws of Nature as we understand them now. Let's just get it, use it, exploit it, and solely for our own means and power. Cool.
World-wide Science Community response to new technology no matter the source:
Wow, what is it? No way, that can't happen. Denial. Denial. Denial. We have to study this for a long, long time. Careers are based on these studies. What are the implications? Should we use it? Is it morally and ethically right to do so? Eventual acceptance and our understanding of the Laws of Nature are adapted and upgraded. Gee, we gained new knowledge, hey folks that is how pure science works! It takes a long, long time.
In the mean-time the Black Op Military with it's bottom-less budgets are flying around the Solar System and setting up secret off-world bases . . .
Hey, I agree with the moral Scientific Community, but the immoral Black Op Military Community is running circles around us.
(truth wrapped in humor :-))
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