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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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We were the same way, Bob. Unfortunately, too many of our peers went for the bells and whistles.
John
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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bluering wrote: I already met Hartouni, and I think he doesn't like me.
I don't know where you get that from.... we haven't really had time to sit and talk, or climb... the Pasta alla carbonara that you made and I had was really superb...
as far as your web presence, you can be a bit obnoxious from time-to-time
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
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Not Tort reform but Tort Elimination.
Ol' #7:
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
This silly Constitution is always getting in the way of progress...
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apogee
climber
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
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Bob & John (hey, aren't you guys a comedy team?), I suspect that both of you, myself, and many (most) of those here on ST have led relatively active lives, which almost always seems to have some connection with a relatively reasonable diet. We weren't at all the classic example of the 30% of American children who are currently defined as obese, and chances are the environments we grew up in were more conducive to healthy choices.
While it seems clear obesity is now an issue for the middle class, it is still more of an issue to lower/poverty-level incomes. (Honestly, I'm taking a SWAG at that.) Regardless, any of these classes of income would benefit from education, an emphasis on physical activity for the kids, fewer hours in front of a computer/gaming console, and a parental influence that encourages (no, requires) activity in their kids, and instilling self-control and balance in their diets.
These are the core, foundational elements that will bring long-term change, but at the same time, I don't have any problem making some of the major contributors to the problem (i.e. Krap® foods, sugar, soda) take more responsibility for the impacts that they create. If this results in individuals making different, more healthy choices, I'm all for it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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dktem,
That silly Constitution merely says that if the suit exists, you have a right to a jury trial. There is no Constitutional right to the tort jackpot our liability system has become.
And jstan, I have to take issue with your implication that people enter the medical profession primarily to get rich quick. Those folks get MBA's, and have given us the short-term profit mentality that has done our country such harm. I am, howver, also prejudiced. My wife is an RN. My best friend other than my wife is an MD, married to an RN. My main climbing partner's wife is a nurse practitioner. I have a first cousin who is an MD, and one who is an RN married to an MD. Several of my closest friends when i was in grad school and law school were med students.
To be a doctor in this country means four years of med school, and several more of internship and residency. Then you end up in a practice that works you to death. All the while, everyone from insurance companies to the tort bar is telling you how to practice. That process tends to weed out those whose primary focus is anything other than providing the best care they can give. The competition is so fierce that to get into any med school in this country reqires an exceptional record.
There is no good reason for our not producing more doctors and nurses, but particularly the former. Our capacity for doing so has not kept up with our increased population. Add the cost pressures on top of everything else, and the personalized care we grew up with has become a thing of the past. At the very least, we should be building more med schools.
John
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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JEleazarian -- " ..... we should be building more med schools."
This proves we're sicker ...........
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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No, Werner. There's just more of us.
John
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UncleDoug
Mountain climber
Places unkown
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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Health care would be as cheap as McDonald's french fries if it was
forbidden to file any claim for any kind unhappy outcome.
Not Tort reform but Tort Elimination.
CC,
Let your world come to be.... and I'll be laughing at you when your plastic surgeon gives you a sex change instead of a penis enlargement.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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Nope ... John
Do a real research and you'll see the world population has become very very sick and unhealthy.
You'll see ...
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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That silly Constitution merely says that if the suit exists, you have a right to a jury trial. There is no Constitutional right to the tort jackpot our liability system has become.
I was addressing the ridiculous suggestion of tort elimination.
It is not a perfect system, but without large punitive damage awards, big corporations would just see lawsuits as a cost of doing business.
Remember the calculus that Ford did with the Pinto? It went like this:
A few dozen will die horrible deaths, but the courts only award a few hundred thousand per death (at the time). Total cost of lawsuits will be cheaper than a recall. So let 'em die.
There's already been several posts with links showing evidence that torts really don't impact the cost of medical care. It's a red herring.
I do think a better system may be one where the punitive portion of the award goes to the state. The plaintiff should only recover costs and damages. It is not good that the system provides a huge incentive to be injured. Becoming a victim should not be a business plan.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 24, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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UncleDoug - The flaw in your argument is that I'd still be alive.
If such a thing happened to you UncleDoug, and I sat on the jury
of your trial for the fatal lead poisoning of such a clumsy doctor, I'd
acquit you. Jury nullification can have its up side.
Cheers
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 24, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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I do think a better system may be one where the punitive portion of the award goes to the state. The plaintiff should only recover costs and damages. It is not good that the system provides a huge incentive to be injured. Becoming a victim should not be a business plan.
My guess is that you have never been injured by a doctors or hospitals carelessness. Or know someone who has. I suppose if you include in "cost" the loss of a way a life I might sort of agree with you, but doctors and hospitals have extreme power, and they aren't all upright citizens.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 24, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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John:
Sorry if you read that I thought all MD candidates are there only to become wealthy. Was not my intent. I would guess however the great majority EXPECT to do very well. But I think health care's rate of cost increase being much larger than the CPI suggests medical professionals will in future do less well than they had hoped. If we find that corporations have been siphoning off a large portion of the cash flow, I could be proved wrong.
I too think a major portion of the responsibility for bad diet lies with the people eating. That was the thrust of my post. But a major portion also is due to the fact a very large portion of the stuff in super markets - is not good for you. The difficulty comes in when you try to assess why that stuff is in the supermarket. I have some cheez whiz waiting for me in the kitchen so I will end this here.
Oh, I was very sorry to hear of CC's problem with his operation. Terrible news. The news is almost as bad as hearing that LEB has also had such an operation. I wonder does CC live in Pennsylvania? Ah well. I guess there is no harm as long as it stays inside the TACO.
EDIT:
A few posts ahead Bob shows some deficit data as a % of GDP. I put the plot here so as not to deflect the current discussion at all.
We are approaching WWII country.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 24, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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I probably didn't explain my suggestion well.
What I'm suggesting is that the amount that the losing defendant has to pay should be: Cost of damages (which of course would include loss of income or lifestyle) PLUS punitive damages, if warranted (enough to "punish" and discourage the behavior - i.e. big bucks for big corporations)
But the punitive damages amount should not go to the victim, they should go to the state. The victim should get ample compensation for their loss, but not a jackpot for being a victim. This would provide "equity" (at least as much as can be fixed with money) and also discourage bad behavior all around.
I don't think the trial lawyers would like this suggestion.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 24, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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All that money you would have go to the state would drive up the price of healthcare by at least a like ammount, wouldn't it?
I thought the main problem with healthcare is it's too expensive. Adding to an already too-expensive price isn't helping anything.
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apogee
climber
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Mar 24, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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"Oh, I was very sorry to hear of CC's problem with his operation."
his operation? There's rumour that CC's problem would require a very different type of surgery...
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 24, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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We've all seen the sad results of Aps failure to learn
any type of self reliance let alone his inability to understand
what he reads.
Liberal rage, is there a cure?
As VP Joe Biden says: This is a F#ing big deal.**
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 24, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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There's a word desribing those who would condemn an entire group based on the actions of a few ( or less than a few, as in this case ).
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Mar 24, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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John and Ksolem...this is a question I just have to ask.
Please show me with hard numbers what republican president has been fiscal responsible, has lower the deficit, cut spending and decrease the size of government.
I respect your opinions and the way you both show respect in your posts.
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