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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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600 posts for an obscure Valley climb....tempest in a teapot.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Mimi,
It's funny that you are so worked up about a climb on El Cap that you've never done, on a cliff that you've never climbed on your own (sorry if I'm mistaken), using techniques that are far, far above your skill level.
It's also funny that you deride WoS for "style" (chipping, drilling, length of time taken) when you don't berate Bridwell and others for even more egregious chipping, or Harding for a whole hell of a lot more drilling and almost as much time.
Your husband has done a couple fine routes in impressive style and they may even be at the pinnacle of style but if his example is your benchmark, you need to start ragging on almost everyone else on down to be fair. Right now, you sound like some lunatic running around claiming that the sky is falling with no real understanding of the whole issue.
A few people here have defended you as a fine, intelligent, fair person, but reading your posts on this issue doesn't leave that impression.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Whether anyone would have the courage, as Robbins did in 1971, to apologize for what has been said and done may be another matter.
Don't hold your breath.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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That horse a few posts back looks like it doesn't need any more beating.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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I think this thread has achieved new life with Ammon’s party now on the line. Good on Ammon and Kate. We have to admit it is interesting hearing their reports and results even at this early date. And it is odd that Donini would cast umbrage on this long thread when he has certainly had his day on the Maestri threads ad nauseum. The WOS issue should be resolved and it’s important. Integrity is always at issue in climbing.
But also what has refreshened the issues here for me is reading Jensen’s report on doing the second ascent of Intifada out in the desert. For those of us not reading the whole WOS thread here, Richard Jensen was one of the two FA’ers of WOS. He and his other half on WOS Mark Smith, went out into the desert to find out what actually happened on this hugely feared and weird, supposed A6 Jim Beyer route. It is a remarkably persistent, detailed and I think level-headed piece:
http://jensenconsultations.com/climbing/intifada/intifada.html
This was a much hyped Jim Beyer aid route that was supposed to be so extreme and horrific etc etc. Well Jensen’s party pretty much debunked the Beyer account of it, were very resourceful in climbing the route and re-creating Beyer’s strange ascent of it and peeling back the nonsense. In a sense the shoe is on the other foot here with Jensen reviewing another very controversial and doubted ascent of others. Do read the link; very worthwhile especially now with WOS getting maybe repeated.
Yes I agree Mimi. Even within the FA party there is this confusion of tactic. Perhaps a second ascent will straighten out the issues. If it turns out it is a highly enhanced and make-believe route, there we are: is that a climb or is it just silly? We shall see.
An allied thread for the Intifada report is:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=231645
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Mark, are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it? Does that mean all us 5.10 crack gumbies got no grounds to complain about a 5.13 bolted crack that has perfect gear placements because we'll never stand a chance of getting up it bolts or not? A 5.7 climber better shut up about my tightly rappel bolted 5.9 slab? Is climbing ability really the only litmus test for validity of opinion? I don't think that's what you mean, but it is where your point leads.
Didn't this whole tempest in a teapot about an obscure Yosemite wall variation come about because the FA party showed up online and wanted to recast themselves as visionary heroes and the hardest aid climbers of their era? I think resistance to that storyline is at the root of all this brouhaha, and the discriminated against outsiders with poo on their ropes is just a sideshow that adds a little pathos to the whole passion play.
The fact that climbing can be cliquish and territorial is hardly surprising, though other quasi-outsider sports such as the surf world are far more violent. The very few thrown punches in the climbing ethical debates are all legendary, but beatings for surfers outside their station have been commonplace for decades.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it?
That's true, I'll retract that. Climbing is climbing and anyone can have an opinion about it.
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Bababata
Mountain climber
Utopia
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Although, you can hardly have an informed opinion on 5.13s if you've never climbed a 5.13. Or on WoS if you've never climbed WoS...
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OR
Trad climber
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Wait, who is Mimi's husband?
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#1SuperMama
Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
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Kait and Ammon pulled everything up to the top of 3 last night and slept there.
Ammon's set his sights on two more today. And when I asked, they both said Ammon has made NO changes to the route thus far. He is hoping to stay true! BUT, as we all have been told on this thread, who knows in the past 30 years what weathering has occurred.
But I do have 1 Question???: If you're NOT going for a speed ascent and there are no teams below you, then what the HELL difference does it make how long you're on a route?
Oh sh#t...that just reminded me...they wanted me to post that when they looked down at the base of WoS this morning, there were 10 groups ranting and raving up at them. 'Cuz they're all awaiting their turn to "hook" on up and take their turns skateboarding down WoS too! ; )
Ciao!
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OR
Trad climber
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AHHH thanks Steve.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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off white wrote
Didn't this whole tempest in a teapot about an obscure Yosemite wall variation come about because the FA party showed up online and wanted to recast themselves as visionary heroes and the hardest aid climbers of their era?
No, it started long before that when the route when up and the FA was vilified. Lets see what the second ascent party has to contribute to the discussion.
It's OK to use that club to pound the horse until it's guts poke out but god forbid you use the club with a chisel to trim it's hooves!
Peace
Karl
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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It is all more fun and interesting and useless in a dog chasing his tail kind of way isn't it?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mark, are you saying one can only criticize a route if you have the ability to climb it?
In this case critics of the climb have and are leveling explicit and specific accusations at the FAs relative to the 'appropriateness' of any climb in that locale, the nature of the line, drilling and chipping [tactics] on it, time on the route, etc. without any direct experience on the route to corroborate those accusations.
It's not like 'Ignorant Bliss' up in WA where there's a specific bolt count per pitch and the facts of its hole count are not being disputed. If people are going spread lies and perpetrate a myth of drilling and chipping it's on them to make their case. In this case, from what I can tell, folks perpetrating the myth the loudest never bothered to find out the facts and no longer have the skills or the stones to do so now.
As far as the appropriateness argument goes, try telling the guys back east at Whitehorse and in NC that high angle slabs are 'off limits' or inappropriate for climbing and they'll kick your ass.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Why lower the armchair climbing standards down to your own level, when you can rise to the challenge?
So true, what was I thinking?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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It's not like 'Ignorant Bliss' up in WA...
Did you ever climb IB Joseph? I know you take a dim view of it, which is fine by me, but I'm curious about whether you ever got on it. As far as I could get up it in a day and still get down safely I thought it was great.
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